The Spanish judge who got Pinochet is now looking at possible warrants against six former Bush officials, who helped get the legal justification to torture at Gitmo. The Spanish Six are Alberto González, John Yoo, Douglas Feith, David Addington, Jay Bybee, and William Haynes. Even if all goes as planned and arrest warrants are issued, the Spanish Six should be safe as long as they don’t leave the US, as the US won’t extradite them.
I am glad someone in the Bush Admin. might be held accountable for alleged war crimes, even if it’s mostly symbolic. I wish the US would take the lead in going after our own. I understand why that’s not the case. First of all, it could set a dangerous precedent, that every POTUS onwards would be investigated by their successor or by the following Congress. Secondly, in this case, the Bush Admin. left the country in tatters and the current admin. has to clean it up. IOW, the Obama Admin. has other priorities right now.
Questions: Do you think the investigation will lead to warrants? Do you think that the Spanish are wasting their time? Do you think that US should take the lead on this? What are some of your other thoughts on this matter?
It’s a Catch-22. We should be taking the initiative here instead of Spain, but then it sets the dangerous political precedent you mentioned. I don’t know how to solve this without a time machine. We shouldn’t have ever let it happen. Maybe we need a body like the U.N. or the Hague but with the power to do something about things like this. There have been night when it’s kept me awake.
I’m just surprised it took a whole day for someone to start this thread!
I’m curious about how this plays out within the European Community. Suppose the Spanish courts issue the equivalent to an arrest warrant - would that then be in effect throughout the EU? In other words, does this mean that all of the EU may become off limits for these six while these proceedings are pending?
Another question I have concerns Mr Bybee, who is now a judge on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Since he is under criminal investigation, albeit in a different country, is he still able to carry on his duties? at the very least, I would think he would have to recuse himself in any cases that involve similar issues relating to federal interrogation policy - but maybe he already does so, because of his prior involvement in those issues when in the executive branch?
Why is it a dangerous precedent to require federal officials to obey the law, and to prosecute them if there are reasonable grounds to believe the broke the law?
So, the next time an Iranian court puts out a warrant for the arrest or execution of some prominent American gay politician, or some American author who’s committed “blasphemy,” I’m sure you’ll have no problem with that, right?
Think twice before you endorse the concept of foreign governments trying Americans for crimes that were not committed on their soil.
This story makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Like there is still some sanity left in the world someplace. I applaud the Spaniards.
I agree that it would be a dangerous precedent to have Obama investigating Bush, however much I know Bush earned it. But I wonder … how dangerous would it be if Obama agreed to their extradition? This couldn’t necessarily be turned on every outgoing administration. Just the ones whose crimes are big enough that even if we Americans can shamefully let them get away with it, the rest of the world will not let them off the hook. Or would this just result in each party having their own puppet states to issues indictments on the outgoing opposition? (I’m sure that’s already the conspiracy story on freerepublic!)
I don’t think that would happen at all, because if any such street-dragging were done frivolously then surely the opposing party would retalliate - at the state level, for instance, or as soon as they win elections. The risk probably wouldn’t be that big, and can’t think of a liberal democracy where this kind of behavior is usual.
Great. Rule of law without democratic representation. Now we all have to wonder what kind shitty little countries around the world we’re being indicted at.
Btw. Last year Jordan indicted a whole range of Danish newspaper editors (10-12 I think) and also the Danish PM and other members of the government. On blasphemy charges and their role in the Muhammed Cartoon nonsense.
Bull. Spain is using international law, namely the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Torture Conventions, as a basis for this and the US is a signatory of both. Denmark has nothing to do with Islamic law. Apples and Oranges.
The problem with that argument is that NOT prosecuting such people has created the even more dangerous precedent that the President and his allies are above the law, and can do anything. I’d be very surprised if one reason Bush and friends did all the things they did, was because they knew that no matter how much harm they caused, how many laws they broke, how many atrocities they were responsible for - they’d never, ever be punished for it.
All our letting him off the hook has done is ensure that some other President will push even farther, commit even worse acts. Why not, when there’s no risk ? America is sliding towards dictatorship, and this is part of why. The Presidency is getting more and more power, with fewer and fewer checks on it.
Yes, but that doesn’t matter in American eyes. Foreigners are resources to be exploited at best. Look at all the Americans who are offended that Iraqis DARE fight back against our conquest of them.
I agree with the Spanish. If Americans had been rounded up and detained by Spain, then tortured, you know we would have been screaming for blood. A government ought to be allowed to stand up for its own people. If those people are guilty, there’s evidence, reasonable procedures are followed and so on, that’s one thing. But when they’re detained without due process, when we violate our own laws, when we don’t obey something we agreed to in the UN, nah.
I also think W was crazy when he adopted this “You’re either with us or you’re against us” tack. It’s well known that we’re isolated here, don’t know our geography, etc. Instead of thinking we’re smarter than they are or richer or more powerful or whatever, we ought to listen more. The first time we were over there, we enjoyed a lot of support…this time, not so much as time wore on. So it’s little wonder that after we told them we didn’t care what they thought, they bit their tongue and now that the evidence is surfacing, they’re back with a vengeance.
I absolutely agree that if there are no repercussions, there’s no reason for future presidents to think twice. Punishment is little deterrent to crime, but no punishment is even less. I think if we stand up and admit this was wrong, we’ll regain some credibility and goodwill on the world stage.
If McCain had won, we wouldn’t have known anything for at least another four years. That’s the really scary part, to me.
So, according to you its not about right and wrong but about being able to get away with it? So it is Ok for America to get away with committing crimes if they can? So does that not mean it is also OK for Bin Laden to do the same? America has kidnapped people in Europe and then tortured them. Do you think this is OK? Would it be OK if they did the same in your country? Would it be OK if others did the same in your country? Why would it be wrong if the Palestinians did it but not if America does it?
Frankly, if there is no right or wrong and it is only a matter of being able to get away with it then this lends justification to a lot of people who want to kill Americans and Jews.
Not to mention America claims worldwide jurisdiction on a ton of things and the right to intervene worldwide whenever it suits them.
America has been breaking European laws in Europe for too long. They have kidnapped people, spied on bank and credit card records etc. Fuck them. Even if it means a few American officials can no longer set foot in Europe. At least it will become clear that they are becoming what the USSR used to be: a pariah nation where criminals sought protection and refuge.
No, I’m saying people should put their money where their mouth is. These silly little power plays are good for nothing but PR. If the Spanish really had the courage of their convictions they’d expel the U.S. ambassador and start seizing American assets. Right now, all I see is hot air.
(I’m sure that’s already the conspiracy story on freerepublic!)