Votes for Kids?

This morning NPR had a story about a family rights organization in Germany that’s trying to change the constitution to allow kids to vote. I couldn’t find an actual news story about it (maybe one exists in German?), but here’s the link to the NPR audio.

On one hand, I think this is a terrible idea. Kids are going to be heavily influenced by their parents, and how many kids are well-informed enough to make a thoughtful decision in voting?

On the other hand, most adults are influenced by the people around them as well, and how many of them are well-informed?

Thoughts?

This actually is a topic appearing in the news from time to time here. Of course the organizations advocating this don’t want to allow the kids themselves to vote. Instead, the parents should be allowed to exercise this right. They’d get one additional vote for each kid, until the kid turns 18 and can vote on their own.

I don’t know about the provisions in case the parents disagree about who they want to vote for.

Kids are stupid. (Except when and if I reproduce, I am thoroughly convinced that my kid will be brilliant, earning both a Nobel Prize and a seat on the Supreme Court. Before he’s 30.)

But yeah. Should we allow people who can’t legally consent to sex or medical treatments or enter into contracts to vote for the people who maintain those laws? Sounds silly to me.

Off to Great Debates at the request of the OP.

bibliophage
moderator GQ

Votes for kids? Don’t be silly - Trix are for kids!

Anyway, Hollywood teaches that this is not the best idea:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0063808

Things get out of hand.

The purpose of such a law, if I understand properly, is to give parents extra votes, in much the same way that people who owned more property were sometimes allowed to cast more votes in the past. It is an attempt to make some citizens “more equal than others”, to use Orwell’s phrase.

If this is the intent, then it is a striking example of an attitude which is prevalent in American political discussion, and, I guess, is popular elsewhere too: namely, the notion that families are sacred, and the single people who do not contribute to population growth problems but do pay the taxes which finance the schools, etc., don’t count.

I recall an exchange in a comic strip years ago. It may have been in Peanuts:

Kid 1: Why can’t kids vote?

Kid 2: Because they’d vote for the wrong person.

Kid 1: Who’s the wrong person?

Kid 2: The guy they end up electing anyway.

Hm. Seems I misunderstood the NPR story. It was this morning, pre-caffeine and all that. Still, the point is valid. Are kids been shorted?

I would support lowering the standard voting age to puberty or so. Even if all the newly-liberated teenagers voted stupidly and en bloc for the same thing (unlikely IMHO), they still wouldn’t outnumber the rest of the voters, and meanwhile they’d be able to inject some variety into the election.

Now, voting rights for kids under puberty? Interesting. Offhand I can’t think of a really good reason to deny them totally, but such reasons may exist.

But giving the kids’ votes to parents to be voted on their behalf? I’m not sure that mandating that it always be the parents is a good idea. What if the kid could help choose his or her proxy? What of emancipated children?

This sounds like a terrible idea.

I don’t buy into the argument “kids will just vote for whoever their parents choose, so giving kids the vote is just like giving parents an extra vote”… the same was said about giving women the vote, and it wasn’t true then either. Teenagers rarely agree with their parents on such trivial topics as music, food, and clothing; why would they automatically agree with their parents on important political issues?

However, giving extra votes to the parents, instead of to the kids, makes the fears come true. It doesn’t even serve a democratic purpose: parents aren’t affected by the law any more than non-parents, so they don’t deserve any more representation; kids are affected by the law, but the parents won’t necessarily use their extra votes to reflect their kids’ opinions.

Did you actually read the original post? This is going on in GERMANY, not the USA. So how is this GERMAN even “a striking example of an attitude which is prevalent in American political discussion”?

Or do you believe that GERMANY is part of the USA?

Of course, you won’t answer this. You can’t.

Read the post more carefully, Dogface. While it’s phrased badly, he’s saying that this represents an attitude that families are sacred and that attitude is present in the United States.

When he states, “and, I guess, is popular elsewhere too” he’s saying that this proposed law in Germany means that attitude is prevalent in other parts of the world besides the US.

In other words, the attitude that led to this law is present in the US as well, although it has not gone as far in proposing legislation.

That said, I disagree with slipster’s analysis. I think it’s much more likely that the party proposing this legislation feels that families with children are more likely to vote for them, so they want to give them more voting power in order to increase the party’s political power.

Like lowering the voting age here in the US from 21 to 18. While it was the right thing to do, IMO, it wasn’t proposed and passed because it was the right thing, it was done because the parties thought that it would work to their advantage.

Since Dogface has already explained that I can’t answer his question, it may be pointless to try.

Nevertheless:

My interpretation of the proposed law in Germany is that it is based on a belief that families inherantly should have rights and influence over and above that of single individuals, and therefore more votes than is possible under a “one man, one vote”, scheme. In much the same way, there used to be a common assumption that property owners inherently had more rights than other citizens, and so should be permitted more than one vote each. What I am saying here is a restatement of what I said, in straightforward fashion, in my first post.

The practice of allocating additional votes to property holders was still observed in Northern Ireland as late as the 1960s. Possibly it is still in force elsewhere. (“Elsewhere” means “in another place”, as, for instance. Germany is “elsewhere” than The United States).

It is interesting that the proposal seems to assume that families will vote in a bloc. If a mother votes for one party, and a father for another, and they have one child, how then should the child’s vote be counted?

I am reminded that when Jimmy Carter was in his first term in the Georgia legislature there was a bill proposed granting voting privileges to the dead. It was reasoned that the families of deceased persons would know how they would have intended to vote, and there was an extended debate as to how long families should be entitled to vote for relatives who were deceased.

As for the idea that the party proposing the idea may have hopes of ingratiating themselves with families, I expect this is the case. Political parties nevertheless generally argue a reason or a rationale behind a law beyond the fact that it is to their political advantage.

With regard to the change of the minimum voting age in The United States, IIRC, much of the debate at the time centered on the fact that 18-year-olds were, at the time, being drafted to serve in Vietnam.

Here’s my question on this issue:

Suppose the parents are immigrants and not citizens. They aren’t allowed to vote.

They have 2 children here who are citizens.

Would the parents be allowed to vote for their children but not for themselves?

If yes, the non citizens are essentially being allowed to vote.

If no, then some citizen children are not being given the same rights as others.

What a mess.

Would there be a minimum age? Would I be given an extra vote for my 1 year old to express her wishes?

I think the whole thing is a stupid idea.

As I said in a similar thread, should children be allowed to vote I will be looking forward to hearing President Timberlake’s stance on a number of issues.

President Timberlake is currently busy, but Vice President Spears would be glad to answer any questions you might have.:slight_smile:
Seriously, this is one the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. There is absolutely no reason on earth to give any citizen any more than one vote for any reason whatsoever.

autz: Since German citizenship legislation is based on the ius sanguinis principle (you’re a German citizen if your parents are), unlike the American which is ius soli (you’re an American citizen if you were born on US territory), this problem doesn’t arise.

Neurotik: As much as this argument is plausible, I don’t think it should stop passing a bill that basically is “a good idea” (and no, I don’t think this proposal is a good idea, and I’m pretty confident it will get rejected although there are some high-rtanking politicians backing it). The very same argument - parties that advocate extending the right to vote only want to increase their own power - was brought up when women’s suffrage was introduced after WWI, and thank God people didn’t buy it. the same argument is brought up in the debate about whether immigration laws should be reformed so foreigners can be naturalized more quickly and easily - which is a good idea methinks, but the conservatives here are raging about it.

As for the question about what happens if Mom and Dad disagree about who their lovely little baby’s vote should go to, I googled around and the only thing I found so far was a vague passage in the parliamentary initiative that said that there should be a legislation that gives equal rights to both parents, without going into detail.

And Sunspace: It would effect the outcome of elections. Heavily. According to statistics, this would increase the number of theoretical votes by 13.8 million. Even if not all of those votes will get cast, it could affect elections. There were 48.6 million votes cast in the last general election, and it was a tight race with the final winner being only very slightly ahead of the loser.

And should women be allowed to vote, I’ll be looking forward to hearing President Clooney’s stance on the same issues.

Dear God, let’s hope men never get the vote. Who knows what kind of trouble President Pam Anderson might get us into?

Schnitte, you may be right. As I read your post, I suddenly remembered the last Quebec independence referendum, where the separatists lost by something like 49.4 to 50.6 pecent.

I think this is the idea, to make a family seem like more of an attractive idea. Apparently, Germany has a falling birthrate. I don’t know that many people would really be convinced to have kids because they could have an extra vote, though.

Schnitte, the NPR story made it seem like this plan was fairly well-received. Since you’re actually in Germany, I’m curious, would you agree with that interpretation? What’s the likelihood of this actually going into effect?

Easy. The vote is split in half. 1/2 vote goes democratic, 1/2 goes republican. :slight_smile: