Voyage of the Dawn Treader movie (spoilers)

[foolsguinea]

@Mahaloth

No matter how small they make the budget, they should continue to Silver Chair. That’s a great one.

Giants & subterraneans & a place where gems grow as fruit–not going to be easy, that one, but maybe it could be done cheaper than the first three.

[Skammer]

@foolsguinea

Giants & subterraneans & a place where gems grow as fruit–not going to be easy, that one, but maybe it could be done cheaper than the first three.

They can save money by making the Underworld really dark.

[Mahaloth]

@Skammer

Next time I see Douglas Gresham I’m gonna punch him in the nose.

Why? Is he responsible for changes in the movies?

[Skammer]

Doug Gresham is Lewis’ stepson, manager (I believe) of Lewis’ properties, and co-producer of the films. Here is a recent article about his role in the films:

When 2005’s The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe—the first film in the Chronicles of Narnis series—was being filmed in Prague, the American ambassador to the Czech Republic visited the set. Producer Mark Johnson introduced the man to co-producer Douglas Gresham, the stepson of C. S. Lewis who had the task of ensuring filmmakers got everything right. He was essentially his stepfather’s eyes and ears on the project.When the diplomat asked Johnson about Gresham’s role, Johnson quipped, “Oh, he’s to blame.” They all had a good laugh, but Gresham knew it was absolutely true: “That just about sums it up,” he says today. When Narnia fans complain about how the films—Prince Caspian released in 2008, and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader hits theaters on at midnight on December 9—have strayed from the books, Gresham is their first target.

[Skammer]

To be fair to Gresham, the fault I find in him is not making the changes – those were clearly the ideas of the “Hollywood people.” But I blame Gresham for allowing them to get away with it.

[Skammer]

Here’s another good article (also from Christianity Today) talking about the deficiencies the first two movies, especially Prince Caspian, and why Narnian purists are upset:http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/movies/news/2010/willdawntreaderfloat.html

Keller is most concerned “that they get Aslan right” in Dawn Treader, and says she was mostly satisfied with what she saw and heard. “I’m glad the final interaction between Aslan and Lucy was there in its unadulterated entirety, because I consider that the pinnacle of the entire seven books.” (Near the end of book, Lucy is sad that Aslan is sending her back to her world, and sobs, “How can we live, never meeting you?” Aslan assures Lucy that he’s very much in her world, where he has “another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.”)

Jerry Root, a Lewis expert and a professor at Wheaton College, agrees with Keller, saying if they don’t get that scene right, “they might as well close up the shop and produce no more films, for they will not be Lewis’ stories any more.”

[Skammer]

Grrr. I should stop reading these interviews with Gresham. Now I want to punch him twice.

The Narnian world is not a globe, but a flat land with an eastern edge that you can sail to. Beyond the eastern edge, beyond the orbit of the rising sun, is Aslan’s country. As the characters approach the utter east, the sun appears larger and larger —two or three times its normal size — and becomes blinding to look at, until drinking from the sweet (non-salt) water of the last ocean strengthens their eyes so they can gaze steadily at the giant sun without blinking.

“The Dawn Treader treads the dawn,” Brown said when I asked him about this motif in the book. “As the ship comes up in the east, the ship sails over its reflection toward the utter east. I don’t know if people know this, but churches are oriented toward the east — old traditional ones. And I think Lewis was trying to suggest our longing for something beyond this world.

**But when I put the question to Douglas Gresham, C. S. Lewis’ stepson, who is involved in the Lewis estate and is a producer on the Narnia films, he said bluntly, “I don’t think that’s the least bit important, to be honest. That they sail eastward, in Narnia? A flat world, theoretically? I don’t think it is, no.” **

And

When Prince Caspian was released, I asked Gresham about that line change mentioned above, in which Aslan suggests to Lucy that he too is growing, instead of saying that he is not but her perception of him is growing.

When I asked Brown about that line change, he acknowledged that the language in Lewis is significant…

**Gresham, though, professed not to see the significance in Lewis’ original choice of words. “I never really considered his size as really of very much importance, except with the fun we could have with it on the screen,” he told me at the time. “I think you’re probably digging a little too deep and discovering gems that probably aren’t there.” **

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/treading-the-dawn-bringing-book-to-film/

So help me Aslan, I want to club him over the head with the complete works of C.S. Lewis.

[Cunctator]

I’m interested in how the film handles a couple of scenes from the book.

Just after Eustace’s ‘baptism’ and return to human form, CS Lewis has Edmund give one the clearest references in the Chronicles to Aslan’s salvific role in Narnia. Does this appear in the film? I’m betting not.

Also, does the film include the incident of Dark Island, where all dreams come true? If so, how? I understand that the British and American editions of Dawn Treader differ quite significantly at this point.

[Skammer]

According to the articles above, while Aslan still rescues Eustace from being a dragon, the baptism imagery does not appear in the movie. I don’t know if Eustace’s testimony is intact or not.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I liked the movie by itself. I don’t really want to think about it in connection with the book, because it makes me twitch every time I contemplate how much they murdered the original. But as a movie per se, it was entertaining enough.

The 3D was shit though. I could barely tell I was watching 3D, and not in a “oh it’s so subtle” sort of way.

[HazelNutCoffee]

@Cunctator

Also, does the film include the incident of Dark Island, where all dreams come true? If so, how? I understand that the British and American editions of Dawn Treader differ quite significantly at this point.

Sort of. There’s this whole subplot which involves a tangible threat to the whole of Narnia, which climaxes at the island. But it’s very clear that the island is a Bad Place, not like the book where at first they think it’s cool to be somewhere where dreams come true.

Also, only one of their dreams come true - Edmund has a stray thought that materializes into reality, but no one else does.

[Mahaloth]

@Cunctator

Just after Eustace’s ‘baptism’ and return to human form, CS Lewis has Edmund give one the clearest references in the Chronicles to Aslan’s salvific role in Narnia. Does this appear in the film? I’m betting not.

Also, does the film include the incident of Dark Island, where all dreams come true? If so, how? I understand that the British and American editions of Dawn Treader differ quite significantly at this point.

1. Yes, it appears, but he is not immersed in water. He simply rises into the air and his dragon-form burns off(kind of). However, Eustace does talk about it with them and says about the combination of pain and pleasure in losing his dragon form. He tells them he was a better dragon than boy and you can tell he has changed for the better.

2. They do go through the dark mist and their dreams begin to manifest. Edmund sees the White Witch, which is not from the book(right?).

Although, the serpent rises from the see there. The reason is that they have worried about him for the whole movie and he manifests out of their fear. Pretty major change, actually.
By the way, I like that Eustace’s Aunt or Mom yells out, “Eustace! Jill Pole is here to visit!” at the end of the movie. Very cool reference to the next adventure.

[elfkin477]

@Lightnin

We both felt really bludgeoned by the “Aslan as Christ” message right at the end.

As I showed the friend I saw it with, the “Aslan as Christ” part is word-for-word identical to the speech in the book.
So, how do you suppose this series will continue? I can see doing The Silver Chair (depending on how popular Eustace is with viewers) and The Last Battle, but are they really going to make The Magician’s Nephew and The Horse and His Boy? Not only is the chronology of both wonky, they contain almost all new characters.

[BigT]

@elfkin477

As I showed the friend I saw it with, the “Aslan as Christ” part is word-for-word identical to the speech in the book.
So, how do you suppose this series will continue? I can see doing The Silver Chair (depending on how popular Eustace is with viewers) and The Last Battle, but are they really going to make The Magician’s Nephew and The Horse and His Boy? Not only is the chronology of both wonky, they contain almost all new characters.

I actually thought about A Horse and His Boy. It would be awesome if the kids were old enough to play their older parts. I think it’d work.

I actually was more concerned about The Last Battle and The Magician’s Nephew. Both are over-the-top Christian. Heck, the The Silver Chair is pretty blatant, especially at the end.

I also note that the first 3 books make a perfect trilogy. The ending of The Dawn Treader does really feel like an ending. And, symbolically, they go from the beginning of the Christian journey–salvation–to the end–death. Or, at least, where every other similar work ends. I’d thus be satisfied if the movies did not continue.

[Mahaloth]

@elfkin477

As I showed the friend I saw it with, the “Aslan as Christ” part is word-for-word identical to the speech in the book.
So, how do you suppose this series will continue? I can see doing The Silver Chair (depending on how popular Eustace is with viewers) and The Last Battle, but are they really going to make The Magician’s Nephew and The Horse and His Boy? Not only is the chronology of both wonky, they contain almost all new characters.

You can see them doing the Last Battle? Aside from the ending, which is beautiful, it’s a total bore.

I’d prefer Magicians Nephew and Horse and his Boy over Last Battle. The Horse and his boy is actually a lovely story and could easily be a very low budget Narnia movie(even though it isn’t in Narnia).

[Lightray]

@Mahaloth

You can see them doing the Last Battle? Aside from the ending, which is beautiful, it’s a total bore.

If they do The Last Battle, I think we can count on them turning the small-scale conflict at the barn into a giant setpiece battle. That is basically what they did in Prince Caspian, and the other portions of the Last Battle would occupy about as much screentime as the Jill and Eustace bits in Last Battle.

Of course, the epilogue in Aslan’s Country will probably come off a lot like the serial endings in The Return of the King…

[si_blakely]

I saw this over the weekend, and enjoyed it as a movie. But it there were some really jarring points…

Edmund - from the books is only 13 (or at most 15) during these events. Certainly not able to attempt a signup.
The Seven Swords - these were apparently Narnian swords being carried by Telmarine lords, who had suppressed all knowledge of Narnia. Why would they carry Narnian swords?
Reepicheep - He claims (to dragon Eustace) to have fought a dragon with pirates many years ago. In Prince Caspian all talking animals are in hiding, and there are only three Narnian years between the events of Prince Caspian and Voyage.
The Lone Islands - If a whole boat sails into harbour, why try to capture as slaves a small landing party. The rest of the boat will soon follow. The original approach (the landing party walk across the islands while the boat is rowed slowly round) is more plausible and works just as well.
The Kidnapped Citizens - who, why, what was the point. They were a plot-only McGuffin with no explanation.
The White Witch - I know she makes a great villain, but she died in Wardrobe and had an abortive comeback in Caspian. Don’t keep resurrecting her. I will be really pissed if she comes back as the Lady of the Green Kyrtle.
Jill Pole - They were not friends before The Silver Chair - she thought he was pretty beastly, until he came back from the hols after Voyage a nicer person. Why throw her name in it.

I was ok with the reordering of the islands, and the longer dragon-time. Eustace became useful and changed over a longer period of time. It takes time to grow courage, and we got less whining.

Si

[Rilchiam]

@Cunctator

Just after Eustace’s ‘baptism’ and return to human form, CS Lewis has Edmund give one the clearest references in the Chronicles to Aslan’s salvific role in Narnia. Does this appear in the film? I’m betting not.

Do you mean “You were only an ass, but I was a traitor”? If so, no, it wasn’t in.

I’m torn. On the one hand, I’m glad they picked up the pace so we didn’t have those long stretches of sailing on into nowhere. OTOH, I wish they could have slowed down for a few things, like “Mustard please,” or the seahorse-riding merpeople. Also, I didn’t dig having that little girl in just so she could tell Lucy, “You’re awethome, mith!” That said, the kid playing Eustace was awesome. As far as playing a loathsome snob, he beats the tar out of Tom Felton.

si_blakely, he only attempted it, and was laughed out of there. How does his being 15 preclude that? But good catch on the sword discrepancy. And yes, if they do Silver Chair and try to pass off Jadis as the Green Lady, my head will explode.

[foolsguinea]

I’m calling it now. Tilda Swinton will play the Emerald Witch.

[BigT]

@Rilchiam

si_blakely, he only attempted it, and was laughed out of there. How does his being 15 preclude that? But good catch on the sword discrepancy. And yes, if they do Silver Chair and try to pass off Jadis as the Green Lady, my head will explode.

I believe I read that this was done in Dawn Treader to have a cameo from the actress. Seeing as the Green Lady is both related to Jadis, and looked a lot like her, I would expect that the same actress will play her, just like in most dramatic productions of which I am aware. I don’t have a problem with that as long as they don’t try to make her the same person.

And I think the idea of Jadis coming back on the Island Where Dreams Come True makes sense. I’m sure the kids had dreamed about her when they dream about Narnia, so she’s perfect nightmare fuel. Was there actually a risk that she’d leave the island?