Waco

Great Debates
41

I stand corrected. Odd they didn’t mention those in that months’ issue of Black Helicopter.

What, I wonder irrelevantly, differentiates a “practice” grenade from a … “normal” grenade?

Do note, however, that much of what’s listed is NOT, in fact, illegal to own.

The barrels, bolts, slides, magazines, dummy grenades (even plugged ones) grenade pins and levers (the local Army/Navy surplus shop has basketfuls) flash suppressors… basically everything below “Total Weapons Recovered” was still perfectly legal to own.

Not that that exonerates Koresh or the ATF, of course.

42

To the contrary. Those willing to forfeit such control over their lives threaten all. The American judicial system is (or once was) more “blind” to religious orientation than any nation of its size. Look at the evidence!

Freedom:[ul]The Branch Davidians were even allowed to exist in the first place. The United States permits greater religious freedom than any nation in the entire world, bar none. By voluntarily isolating themselves within a cultish atmosphere devoid of larger society, the Branch Davidian members likewise began to culpably abdicate indispensable responsibility for their acts. [/ul]Foreknowledge:[ul]One line entirely sums it up:

“Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

If you have the extraordinary opportunity to be an American citizen by birth or assimilation there is one of the most golden opportunities held out to you. Like anything else in life worth having, your Stateside residence commands its price. Just as living requires that you someway appreciate medicine, life in society demands that you know of law. Adults who exist without learning of law or medicine are so bereft of survival skills they might be children themselves.

To grant another command over your entire volition and life-force is to reject survival. It is not rational, nor is anyone suggesting you do so. Knowledge of legal code is mandatory for anyone who lives among others. Just as you must recognize traffic lights to cross a street (on foot or by car), so you must know your basic legal rights. If you do not, your fate is placed in the hands of unknown bettors.[/ul]Doctrine:[ul]Neither Talmud, Torah or Zohar, nor Koran or even Bible should ever interfere with the proper workings of our nation. Its Constitution shall outwear any and all such notions so long as democracy exists in number and advocacy. Never think that a more strict or limited mindset could possibly substitute for the one that sanctions such ideological leeway.[/ul]

More than anything, I wanted to express my profound gratitude that fellow Board members would so incisively approach such a sensitive issue. It would be far easier if we reduced this down to a democratic administration’s “shot-across-the-bow” for the extreme fundamentalist right. I can only hope we live in a nation devoid of such malign intent. To see factual argument take place over a deservedly controversial event confirms my own belief that America provides greater freedom than any other place on this green earth.

Diogenes. Special thanks.

43

Koresh was sick and had it coming. But did those kids really need the tear gas? Does CS help an infant grow? How are you going to rescue the children by gassing them? How can you talk parent’s into surrendering their children not only when they’re brainwashed, but when they’re being attacked?

44

The tear gas was a mistake, and I said so. The feds pushed Reno pretty heavily for that decision and, as a brand new Attorney General, she took the advice of those in the field. The hope was that it would force everybody to leave the compound. Cult advisors warned her that any perceived aggression by the feds would appear to confirm Koresh’s apocalyptic “prophecies” and would trigger the suicide procedure.

It was a mistake in judgement by Reno and it was an act of arrogance for the feds to disregard the the cult experts. but ultimately, it was the BDs decision to kill themselves.

It ridiculous that Reno is caricatured as some brutal thug when her intention was to save the children, not to harm them.

45

Ah, my apologies. Yet another sign I shouldn’t be perusing GD at late night.

46

I find it odd - or at least I should - that you seem to be painting him in the same light as people often painted you, erroneously, over the gulf war (part 2).

He wasn’t defending Koresh, he was criticizing the government’s actions (including the exaggerations of the original charges). To say that because he opposed the government’s way of handling things, then he is supporting Koresh, is the same sort of invalid logic that people painted you with in another debate - that if you’re anti-war, you support Hussein.

Your second paragraph also sounds like a “How can you support Saddam when he rapes/gasses/whatever people?!?”, again, when he is opposing the actions taken towards someone, rather than supporting that person.

I realize it’s a bit of a hijack, but I think it points out the flaw in your logic in a way that you could recognize - it’s the same logic that was used against you. Of course, if I misread you, and this is a bad comparison, then I apologize. Unfortunately, it strikes me that this is “false dilemma” application analogous with what you’ve had to recently defend against, and seems hypocritical - if I’m reading it correctly.

47

By the way, I’m staying away from the core of the debate until I re-educate myself to the situation. I read about it extensively, but a long time ago, and the details in my head are fuzzy.

48

Thanks for the correction. (nitpicker)

Her testimony was a lie. Turned out that she was not even in the country at the time of the supposed rape.

I ain’t defending Koresch, I am being critical of the tactics of federal government law enforcement.

49

Just exactly like the lie of Iraqis throwing Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators that was used to manipulate public opinion to “justify” Gulf War I.

50

EVEN ALLOWED TO EXIST!!! Oh, how benevolent of our masters. Let every knee bow towards the District of Corruption.

Let me clue you, and those of your mindset, into something. America was founded on the principle of individual freedom and liberty. Our rights are inalienable and provided by no governmental entity. In America, the individual is paramount.

“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
–Samuel Adams

51

Cite?

52

Razors, I think you’re really misinformed about Kiri Jewell. It seems like a little googling around shows a few paranoid, anti-government sites which dispute the when Kiri was in the compound, but it’s only a difference of a few months. If you look more closely at the story, waht these sites are arguing is that Kiri might have been eleven instead of ten at the time of the rape. B.F.D.

53

Razorsharp, do you understand the concept of Rule of Law?

Criticism may indeed mbe warrented at some point, but given the facts that:

  1. A warrent needed to be served to search the compound for illegal activity, despite–as hindsight proves–the B.D.'s were inclined to use deadly force in resisting said legitimate law enforcement actions.
  2. In the wake of the initial raid, the B.D.s needed to be brought to justice in a timely fashion for murder.

-How should they have handled the situation?

54

The only big procedural mistake I can see on the LEOs’ side was the use of hot-discharge CS canisters (I hadn’t heard of them having a “sparking” element, only of them heating to high temperature as the CS is released).

I like Sqweels’s idea. How could it have been handled differently? Plenty of people offer ideas that might work, in hindsight, but are highly questionable, and even moreso if considering only the knowledge they had then.

Basically, they were given a search warrant to search the Branch Davidian complex. There was evidence that they had a large stockpile of illegal weapons (Later proven to be true). It was an appocaliptic cult, and indications were that they would likely use those weapons to resist an attempt to search the compound, as it would be viewed as a hostile act. There was no question that this was to be classified as a high-risk warrant; there was substantial risk that there would be hostile resistance to any attempt to gain access to the compound.

To the people who say the government has an equal or larger responsibility for what happened, how would you have served that warrant, considering what was known beforehand?

The main suggestion I’ve seen is that they only bring a small force with them. Maybe one or two police cars, and a handful of officers. No large assault team, since many thing that’s what triggered the hostile defense. But what happens when those 2-4 officers get to the door and ask to come in? Considering how they reacted, there’s a good chance they would refuse to let them in. I don’t know if they’d actually open fire, it’s probably doubtful, but I have my doubts that they’d let the officers in… And if those officers -start- to make arrests, then it can suddenly get much more hostile.

And if they’re just refused entrance, they would have to call in the full assault team, close off the area, and potentially go in, in-force, and we’re right back to where we started.

The initial serving of the warrant isn’t what I see as a problem. The later handling might be… The CS canisters most certainly were, not so much for any pyrotechnic effect, but for lying about it afterward (I don’t assign the FBI any fault in the burning-down of the compound due to those CS canisters, as the fire started elsewhere, but lying about it afterwards is not acceptable). But after two failed attempts to gain entry to the compound, and rising casualties, it makes sense to fall back and cut-off the compound to negotiate and try to get them to surrender.

55

There was an NPR story on this last Saturday (4/19/03), on All Things Considered. You can listen to it on their website at www.npr.org.

Couple of interesting things per that story:

  1. The ATF tipped off the news in advance, implication is that they wanted the cameras rolling when they pulled off a smooth operation.

  2. One of the news crews got lost on the way to the BD complex and stopped to ask a postman for directions.

  3. The postman was a BD and immediately alerted Koresh & co. who were thus armed and waiting for the ATF agents.

  4. There was a difference of opinion between the agents in the field and the negotiators back at HQ as to whether Koresh could be talked out or was he unstable and possibly suicidal.

  5. The reporter on ATC states that he has listened to the surveillance tapes (during the seige the FBI planted strip mikes all over the place, a standard tactic as I understand it so you can hear who is doing what, where people are, etc) and when the APC punched a hole in the wall and started pumping in tear gas Koresh can be clearly heard telling others to “Start the fires”.

  6. One of the few survivors (I think that there were only 7) says that when the APC punched through the wall he ran upstairs and found Koresh’s room in flames - maybe my recollection is faulty but this sounded like it was one of the first places that he found in flames.

My take on some of this:

  1. The ATF shouldn’t have tried to drum up good publicity for themselves. That evidently contributed to what happened.

  2. However the ATF didn’t make the BDs meet them at the door with gunfire. If I got a phone call telling me that the ATF was rushing over in force to search my house I think it’d be a bit more reasonable to have everyone standing out front in plain sight, hands visible, and leave the door unlocked. Let 'em know that we’re all outside and there’s no need to kick in the doors. Knuckling under to the jackbooted thugs? Well no - not pleasant, I wouldn’t enjoy the experience but it’d be a hell of a lot better than having a hot entry with all the confusion and chance of me and my family getting shot. Compare this to me locking the doors and windows, drawing the curtains and getting a gun ready, ALL WHILE MY WIFE AND KIDS ARE INSIDE.

  3. The ATF isn’t lilly-white blameless here but it sounds to me like Koresh is very much responsible for escalating things out of hand by shooting LEOs, barricading himself and many others including innocent kids inside, prolonging the seige and then having the fires set once the tactical teams tried to bust in.

Incredibly tragic and mishandled situation but I’m going to lay most of the blame on Koresh & co. 1 to 10? I’ll go about 2-3.

56

Yes, even allowed to exist. It’s been that way in America for this nation’s entire history. It’s in our constitution. Our (s)elected officials have nothing to do with it (no matter how they try). I’ll bow to our constitution any time of day. It is one of the most astounding documents ever written. The foresight of this nation’s founding fathers was superb. Don’t confuse what I’m talking about with slimy politicians.

And it is precisely that which makes our nation the greatest on earth. You are so preaching to the choir.

You may be a bit confused about what I wrote. There is a price to living in America. I suggest sacrificing neither liberty nor security, for then I would also deserve neither. I do say that it is the obligation of every American citizen to educate themselves about the laws that govern their own existence. Any one who is willfully ignorant of law has abdicated a vital decision-making portion of their mind. This is the price of living in America. It is a fair price and a worthwhile one to pay. Even a minor knowledge of law contributes immensely towards useful interaction with society.

The Branch Davidian members seem to have gone off the rails somewhere. They should have known better and they paid for their idiocy with their lives. I’m not saying it’s necessary that they had to die. Evidently, they were willing to commit mass suicide and did so. I find it difficult to be too sympathetic for adults who make a mass suicide pact. It is instantaneous proof of their incompetency. The children were innocent victims led to slaughter. The adults were fools, save Koresh himself. He was a charismatic pseudo-religious power mad wing-nut with highly questionable proclivities. Anyone stupid enough to allow such a raving loon to utterly dictate their existence (and demise) has already gone through a form of brain death.

57

Zen, I think his problem with your tone was that it implied that they were lucky that the government let them even do their little cult thing, and we shouldn’t get all uppity about burning them to death. Not that they had the natural right to do so, but it was a special privilege granted by the government.

It wasn’t unreasonable, because I also find the terms “allowed to exist” in that way sort of chafing. But… we’re probably on the same side, philosophically, and this was just a semantical thing.

58

10

59

Why didn’t the government just wait? Was there really a problem with just waiting for another month? 2 months? a year?

60

Waiting wouldn’t set an example.