Susma Rio Sep, Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
Great. Thanks for the history lesson. But I’d hardly call post WW-II Iraq “stable” in any regular use of the word.
Perhaps you need a refresher course in Iraqi history Iraq History Index
Nope, nope, no “jewel in the Middle East” but a country fraught with civil unrest and ethnic strife since its inception. Pretty much what I said in my prior post.
So, as you can see, you’ve refuted nothing I’ve said.
And you know all this how? Psychic connection? Rumsfeld’s right hand man? Member of PNAC? I’d wager it’s the last since you’re speaking of a “new order in the Middle East.” I’d be specially interested in looking at a cite for their “own Marshall Plan,” because all I’ve read so far is that they will be paying for the reconstruction of their country – which you just destroyed – out of their own oil resources. Neat, isn’t it?
BTW, who died and made the US Ruler of The World? Or is this one of those Manifest Destiny bits?
I see. Kind of like a buffet. Don’t like one, pick another. Problem being, the UN charter, which you agreed to uphold when you joined, doesn’t work that way. The prohibition of the use of force is a foundational rule of international law. Only two exceptions are permitted: the use of force in self-defense, or with the express authorization of the UN security council exercising its powers under chapter VII of the UN charter. Yes, I know, it is completely unfair to try hold the US to treaties they themselves promised to uphold. But hey! That was the real hope behind the UN itself, that nations could be held accountable for their actions once they signed on.
Too bad you find it so “inconvenient.” Kind of puts you on the level of a rogue nation, doesn’t it?
Talk about “getting on a soap box,” are you running for office? Because I have yet to argue for Saddam, a favorite canard of the war-supporters. Point being, it’s the way you’ve gone about it that is all wrong. You know, the part about “lies and deceit” that you’ve so conveniently construed into a a “menu of reasons for invasions”? It really boils down to might makes right, and if you’re not sure why that is wrong – although being a self-proclaimed “freethinker” I expect you should know these things – read above.
Again, the fact that you’ve allied yourself with a campaign based on lies and deceit, wrapped around one of the oldest known propaganda ploys, tugging at you most basic instincts, raw nationalism (not to be confused with patriotism), tells me that you have really chosen nothing but to follow blindly.
As for “proving my case,” there are literally dozens of threads right here on the SDMB that document the assortment of lies and distortions used in promoting this invasion. That you’ve chosen to ignore each and every one of them, the hysterical speech of Oct 7th quoted here, which is simply filled with groundless lies and innuendoes, only reinforces what I already knew. That many of you simply refuse to accept what is plain to the world to see, the hypocrisy of the underlying reasons for this invasion – which, in the end, remain the only reasons that pass the B.S. test.
Scroll back up if interested in knowing what they are. Or keep making more as we go along. Your choice.
I thought comments like this had no place in GD? Because if they did, I’d tell you your lack of integrity is appalling…Sir.
PS-Interesting link providing all kinds of opinions from both sides aconcerning the legal issues surrounding the invasion. Legality of War Against Iraq
Brain
And to see how incredibly enlightening your counterargument is, read the above post. There’s nothing any of you can possibly come up with (and that includes the tired recourse of slinging insults around, starting with the now classic un-American crap) that will make the lies and distortions this war based on ‘disappear.’ They are all right there in back and white – or in living color as the case may be.
Period.
Make that, Brian. My apologies.
This, I had to address. Please provide a quote where I said anything to the contrary. Otherwise this becomes a perfect example of the strawman fallacy.
What I said, for the hard of hearing, was that there are glaring differences between Iraq today and what you had to work with in Japan and Germany. Moreover, I also said that I’d accept the similarities for argument’s sake and asked for a more recent example of successful nation-building on which to base all the optimism that I keep hearing.
None has been forthcoming.
Perhaps an apology is in order.
I love it. Any claim that you’re behaving rationally is only taken as further evidence that you’ve been fooled.
The accusation is so ridiculously easy to make, you may as well base a debate on who can go “Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah nyaaah!” the loudest.
Actually, it’s “Bryan” (heh-heh-heh, “Brain”, I haven’t heard that nickname since High School) and I forgive you. I’m not trying to come up with ways to make lies and distortions disappear, I’m just pointing out that the lies and distortions are not as universal as you claim. I have no intention of trying to dispel a myth that you have created. Sure, some politcs were played and the spin doctors earned their salaries, but you’re claiming we were suckered? Bullshit, I say.
Iraq destroyed? When did that happen? Did I miss a news cycle? As i understand it, the Americans and British went to a great deal of trouble not to destroy Iraq, though they easily could have reduced the entire nation to a radioactive puddle. With it’s oil-producing capability largely intact, Iraq is in a hugely better position to recover than either Germany or Japan in 1945.
Well, it was the USSR actually.
I don’t get it… why are Germany and Japan being dismissed again? Considering that turning Iraq into a stable democracy will take decades, why would examples from just a few decades ago be irrelevant? If Iraq in 50 years can be as productive and stable as Germany in the nineties, they’ll have done pretty well.
And for all the glaring differences, there are quite a few glaring similarities, too.
I sense another “BWA-HAHAHAHAAAA!” coming.
Funny, that somene who claims The accusation is so ridiculously easy to make, you may as well base a debate on who can go “Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah nyaaah!” the loudest, would go ahead and try to pass as ‘debate’ one of the oldest tricks in the book – the strawman fallacy. Which I see you’ve conveniently refused to address.
Further, your saying: "I have no intention of trying to dispel a myth that you have created’ is easily interpreted to: you won’t because you can’t. And both of us know exactly why. The record is out there, from the false “nuclear weapons report” to the “aluminum canisters” by way of “the inminent danger of the WMD” to the “ties with Al Quada.”
Here you go, all condensed into one convenient source: How the road to war was paved with lies
All Bushit. Period.
Now, if you or anyone else would like to go into realpolitik territory, fine, we can discuss the merits of that. Because it remains the most (only) plausible reason for the invasion.
The story and lesson of WWII is that there are bad guys and good guys. The bad guys are the ones who launch aggressive wars, killing people and occupying their countries, and the good guys are those who oppose them. But if you want to say that history doesn’t exist and go for realpolitik instead, fine. Because if I were to say that the USSR had interests in Asia (or Germany had interests in Europe) and it was just pursuing them when it invaded Afghanistan (or Poland/Czechoslovakia, etc), would you then say that it would be wrong to oppose such invasions just because ‘their national security’ was at stake – or somesuch tripe?
The choice is a world of law and order, or a world as a jungle. When nuclear weapons are spreading further and further, the latter option is suicidal, especially for the biggest target in the world. A case already made by the CIA by the way, prior to the Iraq invasion. Namely, that the US is likely a lot less safe now than before the invasion.
Then again, I’m guessing most of you haven’t noticed what is going on in Iraq as we speak – or the Arab street in general.
:::sigh::::
Maybe because those events happened over sixty years ago and the world’s a changed a wee bit since? Maybe because there’s a huge shopping list to choose from?
A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS
In any event, I can be just as dismissive as you and call it “debate.” Here we go:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Enjoy.
You know…this could have been an interesting debate on the insanity of war and why two groups of people hurling metal objects filled with explosives at each other at high speed is an acceptible form of conflict resolution…except for 2 things:
-
The OP set the tone of “Bush is stupid and insane” and turned this into yet another debate about Iraq.
-
The OP failed to establish why war is stupid and insane
America does not hold a monopoly on war. There have been wars since the beginning of time and there are probably half a dozen wars being waged around the world as we are speaking that have nothing to do with America. We do not live in a vacuum where we arbitrarily come out every couple of years to hurl cruise missles at some random country.
Anyhow…I don’t feel like debating the Iraq thing again so I will stop participating in this thread, effective at the end of this sentence…that I am typing now…PERIOD
Actually, some of those ties are being slowly revealed, but in any case, it’s become clear to me that you are under the spell of teenage Jewish leprechauns. Don’t bother trying to deny it, because the spell of the teenage Jewish leprechauns always make people lie. And there’s no point saying “there’s no such thing as teenage Jewish leprechauns”, because that’s what the teenage Jewish leprechauns want you to say.
Can you prove that you’re not under the influence of teenage Jewish leprechauns? Either prove it, or you lose the argument, since it’s obvious you’ve allied yourself with a campaign based on lies and deceit, wrapped around one of the oldest known propaganda ploys, tugging at you most basic instincts, raw pot-of-gold seeking (not to be confused with patriotism), which tells me that you have really chosen nothing but to follow blindly.
Actually, to save you the effort (because at heart I’m a kind man, sympathetic to the victims of the teenage Jewish leprechauns) I’ll just declare victory now and be done with it.
I win.
Hmmm…did someone tell you you were good at making analogies? They lied.
In any event, if you’re done dissembling, perhaps you’d like to engage in the actual subject matter being discussed:
[ul]
[li]Where are the nuclear weapons?[/li][li]What happened to the report that implied Iraq had them?[/li][li]Where are the huge stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons?[/li][li]Does asking “for more time” to the find the above strike you as the very definition of irony?[/li][li]What happened to the “evidence” of the uranium from Niger?[/li][li]Is plagiarizing a student thesis from ten years ago your idea of “solid intelligence”?[/li][li]What about the pictures of “mobile labs”?[/li][li]Where are the Iraqi drones that could be used to attack continental USA?[/li][li]What were the sinister aluminum canisters ultimately used for?[/li][li]Where is the link to Al Quada?[/li][li]What did Saddam have to do with 9/11?[/li][li]Where was the “inminent threat”?[/li][li]Name the last successful nation-building effort by the USA?[/li][li]Who is paying for the destruction caused by this war and why?[/li][li]Where is the cite to the 'Marshall Plan" you alluded to earlier?[/li][li]Under what mandate did you invade Iraq?[/li][li]Why are you refusing post-war UN involvement while claiming to be enforcing UN resolutions?[/li][li]Why was wide-spread looting allowed while the Oil and Finance Ministries were closely guarded? [/li][li]With Anti-American feelings running at an all time high, how is the US safer now?[/li][li]NK has flaunted their nuclear weapons capability at the US, why are they not being invaded?[/li][li]Will you be invading Cuba anytime soon for the same reasons as you did Iraq?[/li][li]Does the US want allies or vassals?[/li][li]Do you enjoy ramming your fingers in your ears, sticking your tongue out and yelling “I won” for no apparent reason?[/li][/ul]
Again, in case I wasn’t clear the first twenty times, as long as there are no clear answers to most of the above questions, this invasion will be rightly viewed as one based on lies and deceit. And no matter how hard you spin, the questions won’t go away – although, by now, I am sure you could play a 45 without a stylus.
As one US Senator, Jay Rockefeller, recently said:
Two months have gone by since he made that comment and it looks like a lot more than a ‘possibility’ by the day.
Cheers.
You lack the Will of the Warrior, Redfury! Oh, you demand a fight? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! You lack the WIll of thw Warrior, I win overwhelmingly! What? Rematch, I win again! Ha!
?
Methinks large doses of Thorazine are in order for the triumphalist in this thread. Is delusion really running that rampant in the warmongerers camp?
Just to clarify (keep this quiet, I don’t want the teenage Jewish leprechauns to hear), you lost the debate when you posted this:
Were this a religious debate, an equivalent statement would be:
It was then obvious that you weren’t interested in a debate, since you believed anything your opponents could say wasn’t based on logic or facts, but on lies. Such symptoms are typical of those who have been enslaved by the teenage Jewish leprechauns, so I don’t hold it against you.
But you still lose the debate.
Besides, you are obviously unfamiliar with the TV show Futurama, which I afraid also costs you debate points.
Well, were this a debate about chest-thumping capabilities and childish claims, we’d have a sure winner. As it is, you’ve failed to answer any of the actual points raised.
Stick a fork in it. Another hawk bites the dust.
See? That was easy. I just declared myself the ‘winner.’ Albeit you may keep the Dubya dittohead doll award.
Too bad I beat you by almost 11 hours.
Here’s your silver medal, but don’t let the teenage Jewish leprechauns see it. They ask to borrow medals but they always get peanut butter and breadcrumbs on them.
Right. About those questions you can’t answer…
Thanks for playing.
Anyone else?