I thought the whole point of warring on drugs was that drugs caused “overprivileged middle-class recreational drug-abusers” to become welfare bums through the horrors of addiction - so, theoretically, there would not be any in this class to reply to your (self-described) “responsible and realistic” viewpoint! They have all lost their jobs and sold their computers for fixes …
That’s the media’s selective coverage, not the absence of illegal production and distribution of alcohol.
It’s all about drugs being the forbidden fruit.
If the costs to society are greater with drugs as illegal than legal, then the choice is to ignore your moral dictum and go ahead to this brave new fashion world. Can a drug tax earn enough money to pay for the support clinics and associated crime that may result from drugs? Will a tax + government support cost less than the military efforts in other countries, the DEA, the ATF, the cost to the court system and jails… The idea seems much more productive and beneficial to me than just jailing people and stealing their property for shits and giggles of the Morality Squad.
So…We should weigh your annecdotal evidece based on the relatively small population of recreational (as opposed to professional I guess) drug users you hang out with over hard statistics?
I guess you don’t pay taxes.
Who then grows up to be the next Hitler:eek:
Here’s a crazy idea…how about not doing heroine in the first place and you wont have to worry about the rest of it?
Their mission is similar. Prevent unauthorized people and material from entering the country. After all, if someone can smuggle a truckload of coke into the USA, it can’t be that hard to smuggle a truckload of VX nerve gas.
There are still a lot of deaths from drunk driving, alchohol poisoning, and other alchohol related causes.
Actually, I only did drugs so I could work harder so I could make more money so I could buy more drugs…
Anyhow, since I was layed off I don’t have money for drugs anymore.
I doubt it is at a level to merit coverage. I can buy a gallon of vodka for $10.00 where I live. That’s pretty damn cheap. If you have statistics that show that illegal alcohol production is prevalent, please provide them. Otherwise, it is just an almost irrelevant sidenote.
Yes, let’s not forget about alcohol and tobacco. Legal, but hardly “under control” or harmless. Still smuggled in vast quantities. Both kill thousands each year. Despiet their legality, they both have a “forbidden fruit” mystique which makes naughty kids want to take them. Legal or illegal, the intrinsic harmful effects of any given drug do not change. Whether I smoke a legal cigarette or an illegal joint, I’m giving myself cancer either way. The drunks that make Friday and Saturday night dangerous in every city in the world are using a legalized and socially accepted drug, but if they beat you up or smash a car into you, you’ve still got a problem.
And Malthus , most drug addicts, middle class or otherwise, do not fit your junkie-in-the-street stereotype. If you meet a drug addict, you are probably talking to an alcoholic or a chain-smoker (or stoner or cokehead) with a job/house/family, but still wasting his money, ruining his life and slowly but surely destroying his body. Drug addicts do not usually go round with a big sandwich board with “I HAVE A PROBLEM” written on it. Then again, if a problem is hidden away and kept secret, it doesn’t really matter does it?
So instead of allowing them to go to the devil in their own way, wasting their money and ruining their bodies and lives (if that is what they are doing), it is preferable to lock them in jail and ensure that their lives are ruined and that my tax dollars are wasted to do it?
Next time I see a fat person wolfing down a bag of chips, I oughtta make a citizen’s arrest:
“not so fast, fatty! Your unhealty eating has dire social concequences! You are wasting your money, ruining your life and slowly but surely destroying your body! Off to jail with you!”
"But it’s my choice … I’m not harming anyone but myself … " he whimpers …
“Shut your flabby lips, addict! What you do has real social consequences - society will not put up with your junk food addiction any more!”
“Right on!” says the hard-bodied extreme sport enthusiast sitting nearby. “I never did like all of those gross overweight people. No self control at all. Better off in jail, I think”.
“Hold on!” I yell. “You are next, sport-boy. Your dangerous pursuits are likely to leave you crippled or dead - while spending piles of cash in a socially maladusted manner, risking life and limb skiing and rock climbing. You are risking your life and wasting money to do it. Your addiction to risk is no longer tolerable! Off to jail with you now!”
Yeah I gotta say there are many more things worth pursueing than a war on drugs, too much time and money, almost no positive results. To me, one of the biggest hypocrisies is that alchohol is legal but pot isn’t. Anyone who has tried pot, or knows a pot-head, knows that alchohol is much more damaging and addictive than pot. An alchoholic is much worse off than a pot-head.
The big thing is: a hard drug addict or problem user has problems to begin with, before they ever get addicted. Its pretty rare for someone who is doing well and is respectable to become a drug abuser(not casual user, thats different). Drugs and alchohol are an escape for these people, and all the laws in the world arent going to change the fact that they have a problem. A war on drugs just isn’t going to stop drug abuse. It may stop some people from selling, but as we know drugs are still too easy to get.
I personally know some recreational drug users and they are just like anyone else- you would never know. They dont have any problems, they dont spend much money on it, and in fact they can be quite entertaining and fun to be around. These people hold a decent job and do it well, its not like they go to work high. Its just a mild indulgence, no different from having a few beers after work.
It just seems like we should choose our battles, wiegh the benefits, and re-evaluate priorities. Im not saying to legalize some of the harder drugs but maybe lower sentencing and quit wasting time with pot altogether. Maybe a better angle to attack the problem is to use the war on drugs resources for help programs for abusers, rather than putting them in jail which is just gonna make life harder for them.
In all honesty there seems to be some very compelling arguments as to why drugs should be legalized, but, and you knew there was going to be a but, aren’t they just speculation.
We don’t really know what would happen if we legalized drugs do we?
There must be consequences that we can’t even begin to imagine. Can it get completely out of control and if it does can we go back?
This whole question of drug use comes down to where you want to draw the line.
People can cite statistics to death if they want, the only conclusion you can draw is that yes, drug use causes problems. If we legalize pot will people drive under the unfluence and kill others? Oh yes. Will it cause some people to fail at school, work, and other activities because it is always easier to smoke pot than to work? Certainly. The list goes on. But to me and many others the right to do what I want with my body responsibly should be my choice, even if others will not choose to do so. I believe it is worth the cost, others do not. People will die because of it, sometimes because others can not use their drug of choice responsibly. This is one price we pay to live this life, there are many dangers. You can’t effectively legislate morality or responsible behavior, all you can do is deal with the consequences.
People happy with their reality have no need nor desire to alter their being(other than the very specific once only on New Years Eve toaster). And since the rectification of the myraid social ills that exacebate a person’s need to vacate the premises chemically, is as an unlikely problem to be solved by just saying no, as teen age pregnancy, spousal abuse, white collar corruption, etc… Its really an easy task for a person of nominal mental health and security to wail against the depraved actions of a substance abuser…But wasting the money trying to solve these causitive social ills instead of the current waste on the war on drugs, is still a more noble idiocy in my opinion.
oh, my god, "Malthus …you are cracking me up!..all i can add to this thread is, “everything in moderation”…as an aside, i manage to work 35+ hours a week, go to college full-time (double major and a minor), AND burn a fattie a couple of times of week…AND i have straight A’s on my transcript…AND all of my school has been paid for by scholarships and grants…so, in my opinion, it all depends on the individual and how that individual handles extracurricular activities…the “war on drugs” is a total waste of money if you ask me…
Malthus , you give bad examples. Yes, fat people are unhealthy and self-destructive, but food is a necessity and it’s not like we can illegalize it (duh). Sports can be unhealthy but on the whole they are a positive thing. Drugs are not a positive nor a necessary thing- except from the viewpoint of narcissitic self-indulgence. You can take narcisstic self-indulgence as a pro-drugs argument if you want, but then if you are truly honest you’re putting hedonism over the value of yourself and your fellow human beings. And that doesn’t reflect well on you.
I think what this rather adolescent “legalize drugs, man” argument boils down to is people behaving like spoilt children. Look at this thread- you are all, like me, Westerners living in luxury and safety, overwhelmed by consumer goods that most people in this world would never dream of, and with more food than it is physically possible to eat. And what do you choose to talk about? You moan about how the governments who make this pampered lifestyle possible deny you one single pleasure- illegal drugs (something they are doing for your own good anyway, not that you appreciate that). Well, boo hoo. It’s time to grow up. You can live without drugs. So do it.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I am so upset that a bunch of overfed hypocrites aren’t allowed to take drugs that I’m going to go away and cry.
Actually, we could. We could put limits on the amount of food a person is allowed to buy, consume, or possess. We could outlaw juicy steaks and Big Macs, and force everyone to eat salads and grubs.
Please explain your statement that “on the whole they are a positive thing”. There are plenty of other ways to get exercise that aren’t nearly as dangerous as football or skiing. Exactly why do the benefits of sports outweigh the drawbacks, if the same isn’t true of drugs?
Also, are you saying all sports are equal? Take skydiving, for example - a lot of risk for very little benefit. Surely, our helpful Uncle Sam should ban skydiving for our own good, right?
It’s called freedom, pal. Nobody has the right to tell me my priorities are wrong if I decide the pleasurable effects of a certain drug outweigh the potential harm.
We all make judgments like that every day. Should I drive to work and put myself at risk of dying in a wreck, or walk and take five times as long to get there? Should I fix my own skylight and risk falling off the roof, or hire a professional at $80 an hour? If I decide it’s worth risking a fall off the roof to save a few bucks, that’s my decision, and I don’t need a nanny-state telling me not to do it.
You are naive, Mr2001 . A lot of people do need a “nanny state” telling them what to do. This is because a lot of people are stupid, self-interested and/or corrupt, and should not be allowed to make their own decisions. Otherwise there would be no need for a state to exist at all. You can drone about about “freedom” and “individual choice”, but if someone uses his “right” to take an illegal drug, gets addicted and burgles your house for goods to sell, you’re going to wish he didn’t have that “freedom.” It may sound good in the seminar room or the message board, but out in the wacky world of real life (look out the window, there it is), academic talk of unlimited personal choice just doesn’t wash.
Later I shall use my free choice to get drunk and drive my car round your neighbourhood all night. And if those awful nanny-state goons they call the “police” show up, well, they’re just infringing on my individual right to do incredibly stupid things over and over and over again. Fascists!
**
Nice slippery slope you got there. But you are right, if someone burgles my house then I will want that person put in jail. I guess it’s up to you to show that every person who takes an illegal drug is going to end up burgling someone’s house.
But from your glowing endorsement of fascism, I can see that we aren’t going to get anywhere…
[Clouseau]
Ah yes, the old “I know better than they do” ploy!
[/Clouseau]
No… I’m going to wish he didn’t break into my house. Maybe I’ll even wish he didn’t become addicted.
But neither of those are necessary consequences of drug use, and in fact drug-related crime is largely related to the high price of black market drugs. If drugs were sold on an open market, the price would plummet, as would crime.
BTW, I Know Lots, I see you backed away from the sports question. Classy.
Seriously, do you believe that all illegal drugs are more harmful overall than all sports? Do you have logic or evidence to back that up, or just a nagging voice in your head saying “drugs are bad, m’kay”?
Drugs ruins lives. No doubt.
OTOH, the war on drugs implies passing ultra-tough laws. When you’ve got a MASSIVE market, many will feel tempted to make a buck. Many lives are ruined just rotting in prison cells.