Warrant Needed For Crime Scene?

There was apparently a murder in a neighboring town last night (although the article doesn’t currently say so, I’m now hearing on the radio that an arrest has been made).

The part of the story I’m a bit confused about is this:

A search warrant is needed for a crime scene? Admittedly, my knowledge on this is pretty much based on the every-so-accurate :rolleyes: actions taken on shows such as CSI, but it would seem to me that a crime scene would be pretty fair game for a search.

Would this be because at the time it appeared to be a “possible homicide”, rather a declared crime scene?

The search warrant would be for the suspect’s property.

Forget I even posted. I thought you were referring to the radio report regarding the search warrant.

I’m going to register and try and venture a guess on this one, only because I read the same article in the paper this morning.

Without it being a clear cut example of homicide, there is no probable cause. The police probably did a quick search of the house upon arriving at the scene, but they need a judge’s permission to do any thing but a plain view search.

Don’t worry I’m sure Ocean County’s finest well do their best :wink:

Well, in general, a search requires “probable cause.” A dead body lying on the ground would usually qualify as probable cause for a search of the immediate vicinity – but what is “the immediate vicinity”? A 3-10 ft radius around the body? The next room? The whole building? The courtyard outside the building?

You specifically said “search the property” which implies other rooms (or apartments) and associated land and structures (yards, toolsheds, etc) – all these would be considered one property… However, it is very common for all these to be subject to any one person’s consent. A landlord or building superintendent can give you access to search many areas of a property, but s/he does not have the right to search a tenant’s apartment at will, and can’t therefore assign that authority or right to you.

Homicide detectives would of course investigate all directly accessible and visible areas as much as possible without violating the privacy, ownership or access rights of others. They should be a bit cautious about extending the boundaries of the search, lest any evidence --and evidence derived by use of that initial evidence be thrown out (as “fruit of a poisonous tree”).

As you describe the case, asking a judge to grant a warrant is simply basic prudence. If you can’t convince a judge now that you ahve a good reason to search a given area, you’re likely to have difficulty getting another judge to allow any evidence you gather on your own say-so, or evidence derived by using it. Also there are legitimate questions: does merely living or doing business in a building where a person was murdered make me enough of a suspect to warrant a violation of my right to provacy?

You might go for a warrant if a landlord or tenant (including commercial tenants, like many bars) refuses to grant permission for a search on your terms. You might also go directly for a warrant, without asking permission for a more immediate search, in many cases. If, for example, a tenant grants you permission to search their apartment, and you find a lockbox, you can’t force it open. They have to open it or grant you permission to force it, because owning a lockbox isn’t “probable cause” for any crime–it may be for love letters, their kid’s lemonade stand, storing toy rocket engines, etc. If a tenant asks you to leave the apartment, you must.

Since voluntary permission might suddenly end if you find the first hint of anything interesting, and since any imminent evidence (guns, drugs, bloody clothes) might disappear before you returned with a warrant, you may choose to simply explain the situation to a judge, and get a warrant that doesn’t rely on the voluntary (revocable) cooperation of any private citizen (potential suspect or accessory)

Getting a warrant isn’t a big deal. You just explain your reasons to a judge, who will consider some of the objections/laws a defense lawyer will bring up at trial. Except for the delay, it really benefits the police as much as all the many citizens that could be affected by blanket warrantless searches.

Does anyone else see a problem with this paragraph?

Do you suppose her family might just be able to recognize the woman’s address?

Actually, she has a son who does not even know about this yet (it turns out he’s the ex-husband of a family friend). He and some friends are spending a few days out on the ocean. Apparently, the Coast Guard is still attempting to find them. The woman’s granddaughter has been notified, however.

Thanks for the info folks. I was figuring it was something along those lines. Guess you can’t expect everything you see on Law & Order to be 100% accurate.

And welcome aboard, **Matt **. I’m guessing you’re a local. Whereabouts?

Yes, rather odd for a newspaper to publish the complete address like that (and especially if her relatives haven’t been notified yet).

Here in Minneapolis, our papers & broadcast stations typically say something like “in the 200 block of Chestnut St”. That’s usually vague enough to not identify the specific house. (Though a TV reporter will sometimes say that while standing in front of a house, with the house number clearly visible behind him.)

Besides upsetting relatives, another reason for this is to avoid encouraging followup crimes. Some criminal persons could read that paragraph and say “Hey – 215 Chestnut St is likely to be empty tonight, as soon as the cops leave. Let’s go there and see what we can rob.” That’s been known to have happened before.

Some other stuff comes into it.
Law and Order avoids this by having spousal murders away from the house in question, or if the murder does take place in the house, all documents regarding to motive were in the work office anyway.
Police probably wouldnt have access to a locked office at the top of the house where a murder took place, if its under the husbands control…

HOWEVER…

It wouldn’t be hard to obtain a warrant. If the husband is a suspect because he has no allyby that night, and the sister of the wife killed thinks the husband was stressed out because of some top secret tax thing he was doing in his office, that would be all the police need to get a warrant.

In other words, they may not have access to the full house, but it wouldn’t be to difficult to get.

My best guess for the delay is that since courts were closed Friday, they were unable to find the judge.

That’s a world destroyer right there. I watch 8 episodes a day, how can it be wrong?!

Yay! I’ve been lurking here for a month, and on most boards I would just keep on doing it. Hopefully I can spare a few bucks and stick around. Guess my online porn might have to slip. I’m in Brick, where abouts are you?

There is always an on-call judge for such occurances. The delay is writing up an affadavit for the judge. (ok sometimes its a pain in the ass to get a judge but they are supposed to be on call). I have very little to add to what KP said. The police will always get a warrant before a search if time and circumstances allow. If it is a murder the body is not going anywhere so they have time. Unless they have reason to believe that there might be another victim or someone else is in danger, they will secure the crime scene and wait. Getting a warrant takes away an argument from the defense attorny later and makes things go a little smoother at trial. Even if the police are totally justified in searching, that won’t stop a lawyer from arguing that they weren’t. A warrant will stop that argument before it starts.

Hey Neighbor I’m in Toms River

Go for it. Just forget about those eight hours of L&O. This place takes up just as much time, if not more. :slight_smile:

Hey, same here. In Laurel Brook, off of Rt. 88.

And a “howdy neighbor” to you too, MannyL!