Was Abraham Lincoln gay?

[Sampiro]

@rfgdxm

While in this day adultery would have been scandalous, for an unmarried man to have had dalliances would have been seen as hardly unusual. Particularly for a wealthy man.

Actually, the “Dusky Sally” relationship was less scandalous to those who knew of both relationships than Jefferson’s adulterous relationship with Maria* Cosway, a beautiful but married artist he met in Paris. (She was the Italian reared daughter of English parents and her husband, Richard, who was probably homosexual, was an English painter at the court of Louis XVI.) There is some evidence that he tried to get her to leave her husband for him, but she would not; they remained close friends until Jefferson’s death, though they didn’t see each other in person for the last thirty years of his life.
(There was also a highly embellished account of Jefferson’s attempts as a young bachelor to seduce Betsy Walker, the wife of a family friend; Jefferson acknowledged forty years later that the incident happened, but the fact that he remained friends with both the woman and the husband would imply it wasn’t as serious or as crass as the journalist Callendar [who also “broke” the Hemings story] painted it.)

For a really interesting story of miscegenation in Virginia, check out the accounts of the murder trial of George Wythe Sweeney. He was the grandnephew of George Wythe, the judge and law professor who had been mentor to Jefferson and James Madison. Unlike most Virginia aristocrats Wythe had serious money (i.e. he wasn’t mortgaged up to his eyeballs like Jefferson and Madison) and he wanted to leave a large share of it to Michael Brown, a young well educated free mulatto who was almost certainly Wythe’s son. (Wythe freed all of his slaves upon the death of his wife; Brown’s mother was his cook, Lydia Broadnax, one of the slaves he freed and to whom he left a house and grounds- almost unheard of thing for a white man to do.)

Wythe had no children by his two dead wives and Brown, born when he was 60, was regardless of his paternity and race definitely regarded as a son to the old man. Unfortunately Wythe had a 19 year old grandnephew, G.W. Sweeney, who saw himself as his uncle’s rightful heir, who didn’t want to share the inheritance, and who knew that Wythe’s will said in the event of the deaths of Broadnax and Brown that Sweeney was to inherit their portions. Plus, Sweeney needed money- he was a chronic gambler, had forged several checks on his uncle’s accounts that he needed to make good, and was just a generally evil fellow.

Long story short- he poisoned his 80 year old uncle, the former-slave Broadnax, and the 20 year old lightstkinned heir-to-be Michael Brown (who, again, was probably Wythe’s biological son). He was seen putting the poison in their food by Broadnax (he told her it was spices). Ironically it was the youngest and healthiest of the three, Michael Brown, who died of the poisoning. Lydia recovered and Wythe came too enough to change his will- completely disinheriting his nephew- before dying himself (extremely distraught over the death of Brown).

Why this is relevant: Sweeney came to trial for poison. White men who had overheard the tale of the poisoning from Lydia Broadnax were allowed to testify, but Lydia herself, the sole EYEWITNESS to the murders, was not- black people, even if light skinned and free (she was both) were not allowed to testify against whites, and besides which Wythe was a pariah for leaving her and her light-skinned son a large portion of his considerable property. Sweeney was acquitted. (There was a little justice: even if he wasn’t convicted everybody still knew he was a murderer, plus he received nothing from the estate so he was reduced to poverty.)

The executor of Wythe’s estate and the man whom he personally asked to oversee hte completion of his young mulatto heir’s education was Thomas Jefferson, his friend and at that time the president of the U.S. who was in the midst of a major scandal over his own alleged interracial relationship. It’d be a cool novel, cause while it’s impossible to speculate what Jefferson thought, it could be well fictionalized.
*rhymes with “Uriah”

[monado]

@DSYoungEsq

Was Abraham Lincoln gay?

By coincidence, I looked up the story of Abraham Lincoln and the barrel with law books just recently. The story went on to say how Speed offered Lincoln a share of his double bed when Lincoln was too poor to buy a bed. But I think we forget how scarce were resources of all kinds. It was normal for travellers to sleep in the same bed, even strange men and women (with a board between them). Families might sleep in the same bed as well. This has always been common – how else to conserve warmth and be comfortable? Didn’t pioneer children sleep together in the loft? And the standard hut was originally just big enough to cover a sleeping family. Let’s not make too big a deal out of this.

Read George Orwell on poverty in England in the 1930s.

---

“The Holocaust must never happen again (unless the victims happen to be brown).”

[drhess]

The points you’re making have been made over and over already. And what is up with your signature line quote???

[Sampiro]

@monado

It was normal for travellers to sleep in the same bed, even strange men and women (with a board between them). Families might sleep in the same bed as well. This has always been common – how else to conserve warmth and be comfortable?

But just try explaining that to my wife- she won’t even listen. My secretary was cold and we’re both history buffs, what else would we do?

[luthetis]

Cecil:

While I usually am impressed by your thoroughness of research, unfortunately, it appears that on the question of Cleopatra’s ethnicity, you, like many of your peers, have limited your resources to only Eurocentric historians and their treatment of African history. I have read your response to this question in 1999 where you base your response only on the research of European historians and completely ignore African and African American scholars.

Let us begin by addressing your statement that Cleopatra was not black but Macedonian Greek as if that identifies her race which it does not but merely speaks to her nationality. The majority of scholars agree that Cleopatra VII was the last in a line of Ptolemies–Macedonian Greeks–who ruled Egypt from the death of Alexander the Great in 305 B.C. until Antony’s defeat in the battle of Actium in 31 B.C. It is important to designate which Cleopatra since the title was given to several Egyptian queens.

The Ptolemies, as was the custom, were an incestuous, intermarrying breed (they were concerned about preserving the royal bloodline). But they took their pleasure with the courtiers and concubines who filled their palaces. Many of the children born of these assignations were bestowed a place in the royal lineage despite their dubious–and unspoken–parentage.

Many believe that Cleopatra’s father was the product of such a union–his mother may have been a concubine from Nubia (Southern Africa). Lending credence to this theory is the fact that Cleopatra’s bond to the people of Egypt seemed greater than those of her Ptolemic ancestors, who aligned themselves culturally and linguistically with Greece. “Far more than her predecessors, [Cleopatra] made an effort to learn Egyptian and was very savvy about presenting herself as Egyptian to the people that she ruled,” says Molly Levine, a professor of Egyptology in the classics department at Howard University.
So it seems that Cleopatra may have had a true Egyptian (as opposed to Macedonian-Greek) grandmother. Does that make her “Black?” If we use the standards that Europeans and, subsequently, Americans have always used to determine race, then yes she was. Ben Bronson, the Field Museum’s curator of Asian archeology and ethnology, says "What we’ve tried to do is narrow down the range of possibilities for her ancestry. And when you do that, you see that there is a perfectly good chance that Cleopatra was an African Egyptian.
I would suggest that "Cleopatra is singled out not because she was Egypt’s greatest queen (far from it, impressive though she is), but because she is the one who was admired by Europeans (Caesar and Antony) and is the, most famous “ancient Egyptian” in the Western tradition. So the raising of the question itself is really profoundly Eurocentric.
What is of even more concern is the constant attempt of white historians and media to try to separate Egypt from Africa. So the question is not “Was Cleopatra Black?” but “Was she African?” and the answer is YES and since she was of African descent, no matter the hue of her skin, she was black. If you disagree with this and argue that race is determined by the color of skin, then you must say that the descendants of Jefferson and Hemming are not black but white.
In order that you might experience a more balanced treatment of the subject, I would refer you to the review of Lefkowitz’ book at www.asante.net.

[Guinastasia]

Um, okay, so Cleopatra MAY, just MAY have had an Egyptian grandmother. That does NOT make her a “Black African Queen, necessarily.”

For one thing, I believe her family was hopelessly inbred-the result of brothers and sisters marrying. Wouldn’t she then, most likely be BLUE? Since we have NO evidence, really, who her grandmother was, saying, “Well, she COULD have been such and such,” doesn’t mean, “Well, that settles it, she WAS.” Hell, maybe her grandmother was a red-headed stepchild! Does that make her Irish? Well, she COULD have been. :rolleyes:

Afrocentrism

Did you even READ Cecil’s article? Here is the Staff Mailbag question: Was Cleopatra black?

Cleopatra attempting to be more Egyptian isn’t necessarily proof. Catherine the Great, who had not a drop of Russian blood in her veins, became, “More Russian than the Russians.” She too strongly identified with her adopted homeland, despite not being of Russian ethnicity. It’s called politics, my good man.
African != Black. African = African. Was she African? Yes, by nationality-she was queen of Egypt, Egypt is in Africa, etc. It doesn’t make her White European either.
Finally, this is about his Abraham Lincoln column. Start another thread about the Cleopatra column, por favor.

[HPL]

@luthetis

Cecil:

While I usually am impressed by your thoroughness of research, unfortunately, it appears that on the question of Cleopatra’s ethnicity, you, like many of your peers, have limited your resources to only Eurocentric historians and their treatment of African history. I have read your response to this question in 1999 where you base your response only on the research of European historians and completely ignore African and African American scholars.

Let us begin by addressing your statement that Cleopatra was not black but Macedonian Greek as if that identifies her race which it does not but merely speaks to her nationality. The majority of scholars agree that Cleopatra VII was the last in a line of Ptolemies–Macedonian Greeks–who ruled Egypt from the death of Alexander the Great in 305 B.C. until Antony’s defeat in the battle of Actium in 31 B.C. It is important to designate which Cleopatra since the title was given to several Egyptian queens.

The Ptolemies, as was the custom, were an incestuous, intermarrying breed (they were concerned about preserving the royal bloodline). But they took their pleasure with the courtiers and concubines who filled their palaces. Many of the children born of these assignations were bestowed a place in the royal lineage despite their dubious–and unspoken–parentage.

Many believe that Cleopatra’s father was the product of such a union–his mother may have been a concubine from Nubia (Southern Africa). Lending credence to this theory is the fact that Cleopatra’s bond to the people of Egypt seemed greater than those of her Ptolemic ancestors, who aligned themselves culturally and linguistically with Greece. “Far more than her predecessors, [Cleopatra] made an effort to learn Egyptian and was very savvy about presenting herself as Egyptian to the people that she ruled,” says Molly Levine, a professor of Egyptology in the classics department at Howard University.
So it seems that Cleopatra may have had a true Egyptian (as opposed to Macedonian-Greek) grandmother. Does that make her “Black?” If we use the standards that Europeans and, subsequently, Americans have always used to determine race, then yes she was. Ben Bronson, the Field Museum’s curator of Asian archeology and ethnology, says "What we’ve tried to do is narrow down the range of possibilities for her ancestry. And when you do that, you see that there is a perfectly good chance that Cleopatra was an African Egyptian.
I would suggest that "Cleopatra is singled out not because she was Egypt’s greatest queen (far from it, impressive though she is), but because she is the one who was admired by Europeans (Caesar and Antony) and is the, most famous “ancient Egyptian” in the Western tradition. So the raising of the question itself is really profoundly Eurocentric.
What is of even more concern is the constant attempt of white historians and media to try to separate Egypt from Africa. So the question is not “Was Cleopatra Black?” but “Was she African?” and the answer is YES and since she was of African descent, no matter the hue of her skin, she was black. If you disagree with this and argue that race is determined by the color of skin, then you must say that the descendants of Jefferson and Hemming are not black but white.
In order that you might experience a more balanced treatment of the subject, I would refer you to the review of Lefkowitz’ book at www.asante.net.

So was Cleopatra Gay? Or was Lincoln Black?

[Walloon]

@luthetis

Many believe that Cleopatra’s father was the product of such a union–his mother may have been a concubine from Nubia (Southern Africa).

“Many believe” is your argument? How about facts.

[pravnik]

@Baldwin

“Aby Baby” was far funnier than you when he made fun of his own ugliness. Note that being homely doesn’t seem to be an impediment to getting laid if a man is brilliant and ambitious.

Damn! Strike three!

[BrotherCadfael]

@Baldwin

Note that being homely doesn’t seem to be an impediment to getting laid if a man is brilliant and ambitious.

It worked for Henry Kissenger!