Was Apartheid South Africa worse than the U.S.A. to the Indians?

The thread in GQ about how the supposedly open-minded Dutch set up an apartheid state in South Africa got me thinking about this.

South Africa (and Rhodesia, too, I guess) both set up white-minority-rule states that put the blacks - whose land they took over - in a second class position. These states eventually collapsed and are now widely looked back on as failures and as having been highly immoral.

But isn’t what the United States did to the Native Americans roughly equivalent in moral depravity? The difference is that America did it gradually, slowly taking away more and more of the Indian land through attrition and underhanded dealings (after giving a large portion of the Indians diseases, to begin with) and now we’ve set up a country where the original inhabitants of the land have been marginalized into poverty and the land that was once theirs is now inhabited by whites.

Can we really say that we’re any better than South Africa?

You have to be a bit cautious applying these statements to South Africa. The situation wasn’t quite that black and white. The country was being colonised/invaded simultaneously by Blacks from the North and Whites from the south. The original Brown inhabitants, the San and various related groups, were displaced by both groups but primarily by the Black. And that is an extremely potted summary. If you’re fortunate Mr. Dibble may be along soon to fill in the details.

But the pertinent point is that the Whites in South Africa were displacing recent invaders, or to put it more bluntly they were taking land from Blacks tha

an we really say that we’re any better than South Africa?
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Don’t Native Americans (first nation?)Citizens have the same rights as European Americans? And maybe even a few special benefits?

Damn post submitted itself. Try again.

You have to be a bit cautious applying these statements to South Africa. The situation wasn’t quite that black and white. The country was being colonised/invaded simultaneously by Blacks from the North and Whites from the south. The original Brown inhabitants, the San and various related groups, were displaced by both groups but primarily by the Black. And that is an extremely potted summary. If you’re fortunate Mr. Dibble may be along soon to fill in the details.

But the main point is that the Whites in South Africa were displacing recent invaders, or to put it more bluntly they were taking land from Blacks that Blacks had taken from Browns. That may not make it right but in the eyes of many (myself included) it makes it a lot less wrong. If your culture says that it is acceptable to claim land by right of conquest then you will have a hard time claiming injustice when someone conquers you and claims your land.

Even more important is that, at least in places, Blacks moved into land after it had been claimed by whites. IOW the Blacks weren’t being disposessed from land they owned, they were occupying land already owned by Whites.

Nor were there the serious and mutual territorial wars in Africa that were seen in Africa. Whites and Blacks in Africa fought for territory and the Blacks lost. Whites arrived on Indian land as visitors and displaced them largely by stealth, massacre and subterfuge. That is not to downplay the (relatively few) massacres of Black civilians, but it was a very different type of encounter.

In many ways the clash between Black and White in Africa was more like the clash between Russian and England in Asia than the situation in America. Both sides were colonising/conquering peoples hungry for land, both were new arrivals and both fielded armies and had little respect for the indigenous inhabitants.

That’s in stark contrast to the situation in the Americas where the Indians were the indigenous inhabitants and the Indians had no armies and little concept of territorial conquest.

None of this of course justifies the Apartheid system, but it does make any direct comparison to the history of Indians in America difficult.

In some ways the American scenario is worse because the destruction of the Indians was so complete: culturally, linguistically and numerically and is impossible to reverse. In contrast the Blacks in Africa largely retained their cultural identity and actually increased in number after coming into contact with the Whites. Black culture has altered a lot in the 20th century, but then White culture would hardly be recognisable to a Victorian Boer or Englishman.

In some ways the American situation is better.

It was largely accidental, a result of disease and cultural contamination which more thoroughly destroyed the Indians than any malicious or deliberate action ever did.

The American system was never formalised and legalised to the degree that Apartheid was. To the degree that it was ever official it was a peicemeal system made up to suit the times and circumstances and personalities/cultures involved. At no stage did the US as a whole declare Indians to be subhuman and with inherently less worth and dignity than Europeans, though doubtless that was the majority sentiment for most of history. The Indian experience was largely driven by greed and self-importance, the Indians weren’t using the damn land. It was more akin to the machinations of Rhodes in claiming Rhodesia than to the later formalised Apartheid systems.

In addition the American system wasn’t aimed at keeping Indians down. Quiet the opposite seems to have been true: from what I’ve read most people would have been pleased to see the Indians to “rise” to a European Christian standard in every regard including wealth.

In contrast the Apartheid system was deliberately and carefully designed to keep Blacks in a subservient position and let them know it. The effects in terms of poverty and ignorance were precisely the effects desired. As such the maladies that brought such as crime, disease and despair were not the result of ignorance and that much worse for that reason alone. To me a sin made from ignorance is not as severe as a sin made in full knowledge that of what you are doing.

At the end of the day you are comparing apples and oranges. The cultures involved, the intents of all parties, the means used and the end result are all so radically different that any judgment of what was worse is meaningless.

Now. Not in the past. And that ignores how many were killed and how much of their land was stolen. The OP is clearly talking about how badly SA blacks and Native Americans were treated historically, not right now.

Officially and formally? Or practically and informally?

Officially and formally Blacks in Alabama had the same rights as European Americans, and maybe even a few special benefits.

Officially and formally pedestrians have right of way over motor vehicles.

Practically and informally there is little opportunity to exercise these “rights” and anyone attempting to do so is on a hiding to nothing.

Maybe on paper Indians in 1the mid-to-late 19th century had exactly the same rights as everyone else, but practically there were so many broken treaties, land thefts, massacres, rapes with no legal recourse that they didn’t.

It’s a grand thing to give a man legal rights, it’s also a very easy thing to do when he is illiterate and no lawyer will even speak to him.

The biggest difference (I think) is that the Apartheid system existed at a time when the rest of the world was moving in the direction of equal rights for native peoples and stood out in stark contrast to this. At the time the Native Americans were being slaughtered, pretty much every colonial power in the world was oppressing their native populations for gain, so it wasn’t all that remarkable.

That’s all true enough, but to me that doesn’t make what happened in the US any better, which is the real question. I suppose you could make an argument that it makes the Apartheid system worse because “they should have known better”, but I wouldn’t buy it. I think everyone should have known the Apartheid system was wrong by 1914 at the very latest.

 As I recall, the second class position under apartheid was Indian, with third being coloured and fourth Bantu (black).

I agree, but I think this is why Apartheid is held up as the archetype of racisim in much the same way as the Holocaust is for genocide - not because it is the worst, but because it stood out from the rest.

Grim

In truth, Coloured and Indian peoples were of more or less equal standings, and with the former being concentrated mostly in the Cape Province and the latter mostly in Natal, the issue of superiority was fairly moot.

Grim

Basically, because they were both carried out in a directed, organized fashion by people who really should have known better.

Gods, no. You were worse. The only valid comparison, IMO, is between American Indians and **pre-apartheid **Khoe-khoen (Hi, Blake). Both wiped out by disease, both driven off the good lands, both virtually eradicated as a living culture.

By the time Apartheid came around for Blacks, a more valid comparison would be the Jim Crow-era South, I think.