was (are) zionism closely tied to facism and nazism?

[XT]

@John Mace

But to use your reasoning about understanding Palestinian suicide bombings, this just puts things “in context”, and doesn’t really address the issue at hand. Those more knowledgeable about this subject than I have already done a good job debunking your thesis.

He got spanked pretty hard in the The Expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 thread as well…his ‘facts’ were pretty laughable actually, and bare only a passing resemblence to reality (which he neatly explained away by a long drawn out screed about the Jewish myth machine…seeing is believing). In fact, I’m rather surprised to find him here, as he should be over THERE at least making some attempt to defend his embattled positions.

-XT

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

by nonpolar

How about Jews being the Chosen People?

Not so fast, there. This thread is about Zionism, specifically Zionism in the current period. Not Judaism. Two very different things.

Back to the OP: when Israel Shahak died in 2001, The Guardian wrote a short obituary, of sorts. It can be found here.

An excerpt:

Shahak came to believe that these human rights incidents stemmed from Israel’s religious interpretation of Jewish history, which led it to ignore centuries of Arab life in the country, and to disregard non-Jewish rights. Confiscation, every schoolchild was told, was “the redemption of the land” from those who did not belong there. To Shahak, this was straightforward racism, damaging both sides. It was a minority view, but after the 1982 war, when the Israeli liberal sector grew, Shahak was able to put it forward in the reputable daily Ha’aretz. After retiring in 1991, he could also turn his ideas into books.

[Splanky]

About the ‘88’ deal, the truth is that if these people really do have such sympathies, than they are cowards for hiding it. I think DonMartin is at least being fair and providing cites and at least having a civil debate about the issue. Just leave it at rest.

About the whole chosen people thing, a) Jew =/ Zionist. Many, many Jews aren’t Zionists. This is a very big misconception. Hell, not all Zionists are Jews!

b) The “chosen people” phrase is not supposed to identify superiority. I’ve never heard of Jewish Supremacists. And to even hint that Zionism or Judaism relate to Nazism in that way is total rubbish.

[clairobscur]

@TWOTfan

. According to that person (who had an 88 name), the 88 stood for Hitler/Himmler – “H” being the 8th letter in the alphabet.

Actually, I believe it stands for “Heil Hitler”.

[Horatio_Hellpop]

@Splanky

About the whole chosen people thing, a) Jew =/ Zionist. Many, many Jews aren’t Zionists. This is a very big misconception. Hell, not all Zionists are Jews!

Okay, educate me here. Who are the gentile Zionists? Not disputing you, just that it’s a new one on me.

[Necro_Romancer]

Any non Jew who supports a Jewish homeland in Palestine. You don’t know any?

[FinnAgain]

@Krokodil

Okay, educate me here. Who are the gentile Zionists? Not disputing you, just that it’s a new one on me.

Many people in the American Religous Right support the idea of a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons that jive with Revelations).
So under the strict definition, they’re zionists.
If you require I will furnish you with cites.

[Zoe]

My understanding is that Zionists are those who unwaiveringly support the nation of Israel as a Jewish homeland. You don’t have to be a Jew to support that.

Splanky: Just leave it at rest.

It really isn’t kosher to tell others not to speak up about their concerns regarding possible Facist symbols in user names. I, for one, appreciate the reminder about the frequent use of “88.” We’ve seen it here over and over.

---

~~In memory of The White Rose, Munich, 1943 ~~

[TWOTfan]

clairobscur – I stand corrected:

88 names

[FinnAgain]

No offense meant to anybody:

I am not a mod, but it strikes me that suggesting a poster is a neo-nazi troll is against the rules.
Perhaps we should refrain from making further remarks upon his motivations or background?

[TWOTfan]

I’m not suggesting the OP is a Neo-nazi. I am stating as a fact that placing “88” after one’s name is often done by Neo-nazis. I also agree with an earlier poster that the ideas expressed in each post should be judged on their merits and not disparaged because of the (supposed) philosophy of the poster.

[FinnAgain]

@TWOTfan

I’m not suggesting the OP is a Neo-nazi. I am stating as a fact that placing “88” after one’s name is often done by Neo-nazis.

Yes, please pardon my 2.3 cents, I meant no offense to anybody, just seemd in my non-modly opinion that discussing possibile implications of his name should be be avoided.

@TWOTfan

I also agree with an earlier poster that the ideas expressed in each post should be judged on their merits and not disparaged because of the (supposed) philosophy of the poster.

I agree.
However, in this thread, our OP has made several claims, had them shot down, and kept on trucking without making much of an effort to debate, and hasn’t retracted spurious claims.

Personally I don’t have high hopes for this thread, but I welcome the OP to come back and defend his position, or retract it.

[Chairman_Pow]

@FinnAgain

Many people in the American Religous Right support the idea of a Jewish homeland (albeit for reasons that jive with Revelations).
So under the strict definition, they’re zionists.
If you require I will furnish you with cites.

I got ya.

[Little_Nemo]

I coose 88 bacause I’ve a fan of the 80’s (music, movies etc), and 1988 was in many ways my greatest year.

It’s surprising none of us figured that out from all those threads you keep starting about the Traveling Wilburys. It’s obvious from your posts how you’re obsessed with 80’s pop music.

But here’s a hint from a fellow U2 fan; if you keep posting threads about how Jews are bad and incorporate a well-known neo-nazi symbol into your screen name, some people are going to assume you’re a nazi. And then they’re going to laugh at you because being a nazi in 2004 is a pretty silly thing to be.

And why hasn’t Paul Simon been able to make another album as good as Graceland?

[FinnAgain]

I vote for seeing more posts on how cool Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan, George Harrison, etc… were together, and fewer factually incorrect posts demonizing Israel, Jews, and Zionism.

[Capt_B.Phart]

@Little Nemo

And why hasn’t Paul Simon been able to make another album as good as Graceland?

Yuk! (there’s never a vomiting smilie when you need one!)
Anyway, maybe the Dope should prevent people from choosing “88” names, or at least have a warning on the signup page about how they’re likely to be interpreted (It was the first thing that caught my eye when I saw the OP in the other thread).
This isn’t the first, and won’t be the last time this comes up

[DonMartin88]

@tomndebb

There may be many such links, but you have not provided any of them. Certainly these three quotations do nothing to support that contention.
Jabotinsky’s remarks could have been made by any number of people on the Left or the Right, classic Liberals, Conservatives, socialists, capialists, progressives, or any other group 100 years ago. The concepts of race and of blood were simply accepted by the overwhelming majority of people in European and European-colonized countries. It was a regular issue of discussion among scientists. (Check out the early chapters of Gould’s The Mismeasure of Man. Even people who disagree with Gould’s politics or later conclusions have to acknowledge that his depiction of nineteenth and early twentieth century science (especially among the ethnologists) is accurate.) It would be extraordinary to find someone writing in 1904 who did not believe that race and blood determined most people’s lives.

The Bialik quotation is so cryptic as to be meaningless. Bialik was a poet, not a politician. Was his quotation a repitition of the idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s quote, (an idea which had hardly become outdated in merely 30 years)? Or was it part of a larger text that agreed with small points that Hitler had made, the better to distance itself from the greater claims made by Hitler? This quotation tells us nothing.

Eichmann was running from the Israelis and trying to rationalize his actions against the Jews. His statement is purely self-serving nonsense in which he attempts to portray himself as being like one of the people he persecuted.

So, where are all these “many links”?

this is written by Gilad Atzmon, he’s not a historican, but his writings is worth reading

When Zionism was born it was more than a legitimate ideological philosophy.
It was part of the nineteenth-century European nationalistic movement and
developed at a time when hatred of the Other was more than common within
European intellectual and political discourse. Revisionist Zionists led by
Vladimir Jabotinsky openly praised Italian fascism and regarded Mussolini as
their ideological mentor. Further, Jabotinsky adopted the idea of racial
purity many years before Hitler even mentioned it. At the time, Zionism wasn
't the only philosophy to push for a nationalistic state based on racial
purity. After World War II and the fall of Nazism, however, things changed.
The idea of a state based on racial purity was no longer legitimate.

Nationalistic Jewish aspirations started to appear in the late nineteenth
century following the emancipation of European Jews. Zionist ideologists
followed the growing wave of European nationalism. Early Zionists regarded
the possibility of Jewish assimilation as a grave threat to Jewish
existence. Many of those thinkers also agreed that Jewish people suffered
from severe social malfunctioning, referring to traditional Jewish
occupations as non-productive. The Zionist assumption at the time was that
this form of unhealthy social condition was a result of living in a ghetto
in a foreign land for too long. Zionism was regarded as a remedy for the
many different ‘traditional Jewish sicknesses’. It aimed to create a new
Jew: a secular, civilized and productive man that lives and cultivates his
own land while communicating in his own language (Hebrew), very much the
opposite of the eastern European ghetto character. This experiment proved to
be very short-lived. In practice, that ‘new Jew’ has never been created.
Zionism has never been a secular movement. While secularity is an
alternative philosophy to religion, when it comes to Zionism and Jewish
secularity, Zionism rejects some Jewish rituals only to then adopt new ones.
>From the very beginning Zionism adopted many biblical and mystical heroic
Jewish symbols, mostly suicidal ones (the stories of Massada, a tale of
collective kamikaze, and Samson, the first Jewish suicide bomber, are
typical examples). Moreover, the decision to resurrect the Jewish state in
Palestine related directly to the biblical promise. Although in the
beginning it looked as if a real effort to establish a Hebraic civilization
was being made, every visitor to Israel nowadays would agree that most
Hebraic cultural aspects are vanishing from the collapsing Israeli culture.
Even the Hebrew is getting minced by the day. Needless to say, soon after
their arrival, the Zionists found that it was far easier to use Palestinian
labor than to get burned themselves in the open Mediterranean fields. In
retrospect, it would be hard to point out any major cultural Hebraic rebirth
except of some barbarian habits that naturally developed during many decades
of sadistic oppression.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/mistakes.html

[FinnAgain]

DonMartin88: this is ridiculous.
For the love of Og will you please stop responding with nary an original thought and without any proof?

Stop quoting huge blocks of text!

As others have pointed out, a belief in ‘race’ was hardly unique to Germany, and hardly unique to Nazism, and hardly a call for genocide.

And even with your style of debate, you’ve not given one iota of proof for the idea that zionism has anything more than a belief in ‘race’ with Nazism. And hell, that belief was abandoned!

But it occurs to me that I probably shouldn’t be responding to you. So until you can actually debate, put forward your own ideas with proof behind them, respond to specific points with specific counters, etc…

I don’t know why you are attempting to stir up anti Zionist-Jewish-Israeli passions with your unsubstantiated and secondary-source-based ‘debating’ tactics, but I feel like a fool for giving you any legitimacy.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Heck, in the ideological hailstorm that was swirling through Europe 1875-1925, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if factions occasionally slightly overlapped, even if they eventually evolved into structures that (sometimes violently) opposed each other.

Whatever tenuous ties zionism may have once had to fascism, I’ll be the OP can’t cite a good example less than 75 years old.

[BrainGlutton]

@DonMartin88

ther are many links between zionism and nazism
The Ten Most Common Mistakes of the Israeli People

DonMartin88, you do not add to the credibility to your argument by linking to a site that seems to focus on insane conspiracy theories.