From the OP’s cited webpage, as one of the top ten mistakes made by Israelis:
Oooh! Oooh! I live in a democracy (Canada)! Does that mean I can legitimately atrocitize people? Cool!
Oy, I’m hyperventilating. Hyperventilating, folks. Okay, time for me to calm down.
Just yesterday I got into an argument with a friend of my friend (first time I had met this friend of my friend). If murder were not illegal, I would have strangled him with my bare hands whilst driving the car.
He said that Zionism is fascist, racist, and that its policies are not unlike the NSDAP’s (including levelling charges of genocide/Holocausting). Such idiotic statements I had read but never ever expected to hear them from someone within earshot of me. I’m still in shock.
I am a Zionist. Sometimes, more Zionist than Zionists themselves. And I am not a Jew. (Nor am I one of those Evangelical Christian friends of Israel.)
There is NO connection between Zionism and racism or Zionism and fascism or Zionism and NSDAP. None whatsoever. Anyone who argues otherwise should seek psychiatric (yes, skip the psychologist) help immediately. I’m serious.
Zionism, historically and currently, has been about establishing a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land (the former Kingdoms of Yisrael/Israel and Yehudah/Judah) and maintaining its unified existence and sovereignty thereafter. Zionists are not opposed to the peaceful existence of non-Jewish peoples. Muslims, Christians, Bahais, and Druze live quite contentedly in Israel, as people from various far-flung regions (the Ethiopian Falashas, the Indian Cochin Jews, the Russian Jews). But Zionists are adamant about protecting the State’s existence for the sake, primarily, of the Jewish people, not because they’re any better or superior or supernaturally above everyone, but because they have no other home. Everywhere else, they are persecuted. (And even in their new home they get blown up by [censored].) And Zionists will not tolerate any people or organization within the borders of Israel that seek to harm, dismantly, or destroy the State. (Such an attitude is held by every state in the world - so Israel is no exception, and no exception should be made in this regard either. She has as much right to protect herself as the US, Pakistan, and Sweden.)
Furthermore, Israel is far from fascist. She is the bastion of freedom and liberty in an area of oppression, repression, and stagnancy. (I’d also say “democracy” but democracy’s not always good. In Israel it seems to be working out.) Many Palestinians flee their lands to Israel to live freely (gays come to mind). There’s religious freedom in Israel. There’s political freedom in Israel. There’s literary freedom in Israel. There’s economic freedom in Israel. Compared to her neighbors, Israel is the Garden of Eden!
Where genocide, racism, and fascism come into this, I know not. (And why I began sounding like an employee of the Ministry of Tourism or Foreign Affairs, I know not.)
HH - is it for two people or for the NSDAP greeting? (Himmler was a chicken farmer. I find that amusing. Hitler was a vegetarian. I find that thought-provoking.)
WRS - not a vegetarian. We love meat.
Oooh, oooh. A few more remarks.
Not all Jews are Zionists. As a matter of fact, there are some Jews (such as Neturei Karta) who believe that the State of Israel is an abomination, a violation of the covenant between the Holy One, blessed be He, and His people (the covenants being that they would not overthrow authorities under which they lived and they would not rush the Coming of the Messiah - establishing a sovereign Jewish state would be trying to rush the Redemption: it’s the Messiah’s job to restore the Holy Land to Jewish hands and ways). They see this as either well-meaning Jews (observant Jews) violating the High One’s plans or apostate Jews (secularists) overthrowing the plan and attempting to bring about the Redemption by themselves. Such wayward Jews are very, very, very naughty indeed, and the High One is very, very, very angry with them (and even may be delaying the Redemption because of them). (Jews who believe this will have nothing to do with the State of Israel and forbid even making aliyah. The land of Israel is off-limits until the Messiah comes, they believe, especially when it comes to state-making.)
Other Jews believe that the political aspirations and goals of the State of Israel are incompatible with what the Holy One, blessed be He, has determined for His people and for the Redemption that shall accompany His Messiah. Secularism is totally wrong, of course, and is tantamount to spiritual excision from the Holy One, blessed be He. (Of course, despite their karet-edness, they’re still Jews.) Jews of this line of thinking will not support the establishment of the land of Israel but will live there and attempt to make Jews more observant so that the Messiah will come and establish the real kingdom of Israel forever more. They will also support the territorial integrity of the State.
There many Jews, secular, who believe that the Redemption is a process and not about the coming of a particular person. They see no need in becoming religious or supporting, really, a religious regime. Religion is a personal affair and not something the State ought to take a part in, have a say in, protect, or otherwise interfere (for better or for worse). They’re Jewish by heritage, and this is their land.
And then you have “Gentile” Zionists. Some of them believe that the establishment of the Land of Israel and the return of Jews thereto is a sign of the Second Coming. Plus, these Christians (weird that as conservative they are, they are not anti-Semitic) believe that Israel must remain Israel. (At some point, most likely when Jesus returns, these Jews will become Christians, they believe.)
I believe in Zionism because I believe that the Holy One, blessed be He, gave the land to the Jews. It is theirs, and it is holy land. However they repossessed it, they now are there and I support them. I believe in the Hebrew Bible and its mandate, as it were, to the Jews regarding the eternal spiritual (and eventually territorial) possesion of the Holy Land. There are political reasons too, so my beliefs really are not the only reason.
WRS - still not a vegetarian. Maybe likes meat a bit too much, according to some.
You shouldn’t, really. I’ve heard accounts that he was a vegatarian for purely medical reasons (hamburgers upset his fascist little tummy).
If recent history holds true, I’d say it’s just about time for DonMartin88 yo start another thread.
I move that this be put in nomination for the understatement of the year.
Atzmon may champion causes that historically aware people also champion, but his little rants are so lacking in historical foundation that they are useless to this discussion. (Not to mention the point that your excessive quotation still does not even support your position: it continues to focus on one slanted view of Jabotinsky’s position, extrapolated to Atzmon’s distorted view of history. Note that the beginning of his rant exactly supports my point that the whole European-based intellectual establishment viewed race and blood as “real” at the beginning of the 20th century, but by the end of his rant he is claiming both that Zionism is a religious movement and that it is failing to be a religious movement.) Specifically, Atzmon is clearly one of those left-leaning persons for whom “fasicst” is a general purpose epithet for any government that he opposes, irrespective of any actual similarity (or lack) between that government and Fascism as it is defined by historians. It is rather like using a text from Robert Welch to prove that the Nixon administration was “Communist.”
Have you got any links between Ben-Gurion and Fascism? Weizman and Fascism? Ben-Tzvi and Fascism? Yadin and Fascism?
Or are you going to simply beat the memory of Jabotinsky into dust with your misunderstanding of early 20th century attitudes toward race? (BTW, I love Atzmon’s insupportable claim that the immigrant Jews resorted to Palestinian labor for the bulk (all?) of their farming.)
none whatsoever?
you seams to be prette sure and it stikes me that you could be a person who believe that if a lie is repeaetd enough it will come true
I do think that there are a connection between zionism and facism/racism, but the ties where stronger before. zionsm where created in a time when nationalism and racism where less controvercial.
Well, heck, zionism was created (if that’s the word) in a time when a huge variety of political ideals were being formed, nationalism and fascism among them. That someone in the earliest stages of zionism might have made a positive statement about the earliest stages of fascism isn’t really all that surprising. What would be surprising (and extraordinarily unlikely) would be someone who claimed to support the end-stage of zionism (i.e. the formation of the republic of Israel) making positive statements about the end-stage of fascism (i.e. Auschwitz), unless that person was a demonstrable nut.
As I stated earlier, I’d like to see you cite a good (i.e. non-nutty) example less than 75 years old, by which time zionism and fascism were in their final (and opposed) forms. 75 is actually pretty generous. On reflection, any 20th-century cite would be interesting.
So “88” doesn’t refer to piano keys?
mmmm? You are the one who continues to repeat the statement that there is some link between Zionism and Fascism while providing no support for that repeated claim beyond some selected quotations that have been demonstrated to be false or taken out of context. As you have now pointed out, repeating a falsehood does not make it true.
Compare and contrast Nazism and Zionism
From a read of Wiki here is my attempt of a summary (OK I’m no historian). Please alter as you see fit.
Nazism - Claim that there are races of humans and that one of these (Aryan) is the best.
Zionism - Dont claim to be any better than anyone else.
Nazism - A nation should be a pure reflection of a race. Ethnic diversity weakens the nation.
Zionism - Claim that Jewish people constitute a nation. Not sure on their take on ethnic diversity.
Nazism - Claim democracy is a destabilising force because it puts to much power in the hands of minorities.
Zionism - Supports democracy.
Nazism - Those that teach love and tolerance are seen as slaves to false religions.
Zionism - Judeism definately teaches love and tolerance, despite the behaviour of the Israeli government. I suppose Zionism does too.
Nazism - Has an ‘a’ and no ‘o’ and is one i’ed.
antechinus12
No, Oldsmobiles.
“Now that you’ve ridden in my rocket 88
I’ll be around every night about eight
You know it’s great, don’t be late
Everybody likes my rocket 88
Gals will ride in style, moving all along”