Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces?

[Tigers2B1]

@vibrotronica

So, Tiger, if everyone speeds on the airport road because it’s so dangerous, then why should this particular case justify a shooting?

Who said it justified the shooting?? Not me. Who said it didn’t justifiy the shooting? Not me. So – the question becomes – why address this to me?

And if it was an unannouced roadblock to protect Negroponte, then how was the Italian party supposed to know it was there?

IF it was unannounced than no one would know it was there — but it was ONLY Sgrena’s car that was shot at that night. Why?

…I also find the speed with which you can go from loving the Italians because they’re a part of the Coalition to saying they are fuck-ups who deserve to be shot very disturbing.

Well, I don’t know who was the "fuck-up here ----- well, I do consider Sgrena a bit odd – but maybe she’ll get better if this was caused by her kidnapping and long term stress.

You are not serving the Dope’s traditional mission of fighting ignorance. For the most part, you’ve just been talking out of your ass.

Then point to where I’ve done such and we’ll discuss — apparently you have a hard time with ideas that don’t fit your preconceptions. Until then I suggest that you are the party guilty of ass-speak –

[annaplurabelle]

@Tigers2B1

Look – go for it - “Abnormal” but with a slight variation on your bolding –

Unless you are privy to Negroponte’s itinerary, or the pattern of US VIP travel routes, this is an irrelevant reply. You have no idea what consitutes ‘normal’ in this situation, do you?

I just wonder why you are so keen on thwarting enquiry. What worries you? This is considered a ‘friendly fire’ enquiry, and yet you feel the need to smear and blame an allied nation. Why is that? Surely you know that there is no chance an individual US soldier will be blamed for this. And you also know that there will be no significant blowback for the US troops, or the US as a nation. So what worries you? What possibilities are in your mind that require such an avid defence???

[Well]

@annaplurabelle

So what worries you? What possibilities are in your mind that require such an avid defence???

But it remains that the troops did fire on the car, so the alternative scenarios must be considered as well

Why are only your alternate scenarios worth addressing? What worries you so much that you have to so avidly defend the Itallians? Maybe he is speculating, and/or guessing.

[vibrotronica]

Tiger, you back off from your vitrol when you’re called on it, but you’ve just spent several pages blaming the victim and almost-but-not-quite saying they deserved it because the Italians probably paid a ransom for the hostages. Your whole argument has been “Look what you made me do!” You’re not interested in the truth, you’re just interested in spinning this so it doesn’t turn into another stain on the Iraqi Adventure. As a result, this thread has degenerated into a disgraceful trainwreck, which was probably inevitable anyway. I don’t have enough information to make any sort of judgement on what happened, and neither do you. So stop pretending you do.

[annaplurabelle]

@Well

Why are only your alternate scenarios worth addressing? What worries you so much that you have to so avidly defend the Itallians? Maybe he is speculating, and/or guessing.

I never said my proposed scenarios are the only ones worth addressing.

I understand that Tigers is only speculating, and/or guessing.

I just wanted to make sure that everyone else understands that it is only that - speculating, and/or guessing.

Why is it that my speculations warrant your qualifier when Tigers speculations did not, until now? He’d been speculating long before I appeared in this thread.

[Well]

@annaplurabelle

Why is it that my speculations warrant your qualifier when Tigers speculations did not, until now? He’d been speculating long before I appeared in this thread.

Because I don’t think he is speculating or guessing any more than I think you are. He has an accusatory tone to the Itallians, just as you have an accusatory tone towards the US. It wasn’t my intent to speak for Tigers, but just point that out to you.

[Tigers2B1]

@vibrotronica

Tiger, you back off from your vitrol when you’re called on it, but you’ve just spent several pages blaming the victim…

Well first I noticed to didn’t “call me” and anything. Again, be specific, what exactly did I say that seemed to upset you? Cite that and as I’ve already indicated - we’ll discuss. Until then it’s all - as you said - talking out of your ass.

Blaming the “victim” – I suggest you take a look at the topic title of this thread vibrotronica - before you start again with more of your unfounded and unsupported ad hominem -

…almost-but-not-quite saying they deserved it because the Italians probably paid a ransom for the hostages.

No - I’m not “almost but not quite saying” anything – I don’t even know what in the hell that means. I am saying and do blame the Italian government for paying ransoms. I posted that many times - there was nothing equivocal about that. If that’s what upsets you - say it and again we can discuss it if you feel I’ve treated the subjust unfairly -

…Your whole argument has been “Look what you made me do!”

Again — when you simply assert the case and don’t support it – when you don’t or refuse to provide examples of the “look what you made me do” – whatever you’ve accused - it’s impossible to address.

[quoe]You’re not interested in the truth, you’re just interested in spinning this so it doesn’t turn into another stain on the Iraqi Adventure…
[/QUOTE]

Know what vibrotronica - I suspect it’s really that you have a very hard time with different points of view. I really suspect that’s the long and the short of your diatribe here. There’s really nothing factual that you can point to and say this or that is where you miss the mark. It’s the fact that my opinion is different than one you want expressed here. And you seem to have difficultly living in that sort of world. If there’s more - you’ve failed in showing that –

[Declan]

@Ale

Why would they try to evade the checkpoint?, really, is there any reason for that?

Two possible ansewers for this.

One is that they did not recognize it as an american check point and assumed it was an insurgent operation, having gone from one set of bandits ,into another may have prompted the Italians to run it.

The second is that it was a clandestine operation that was sanctioned but deniable, The lead agent turned down support from his own embassy, and presumably would have had to file a route plan and Itinerary for purposes, getting busted might have caused political ramifications that Rome did not want.

Why would a “professional and knew the circumstances and likely consequences” driver would drive right into a certain shooting and possible death if there was no reason at all to do so?

This is a guess actually , but to me it makes a sort of sense. The Italian contingent has people in place , that would recognize an american or other allied check point and react accordingly, but if these agents were directly from rome , they may not have had time in country to learn the lay of the land and plan a bit more judiciously.

Declan

[Declan]

@annaplurabelle

This is what troubled me too.

But as we are told now, this was a ‘temporary’ checkpoint, set up less than 1km from the airport. An abnormal and unexpected checkpoint.

The Italian driver was the head of SISMI ops in Baghdad. I assume he was familiar with the checkpoint procedures and the road to the airport. Perhaps he did not expect this new, temporary checkpoint, which by accounts so far was located after a steep turn in the road.

In my own reply to Ale, I assumed that the sismi team was flown in for the occasion , however in your reply to ale, the driver was an in-country asset who should have known procedures and what not.

I realize that even you have said this ,but it still strikes me , that given the high rate of speed , turning down local agency support and demonstrating bad judgement upon meeting an unexpected checkpoint, that this driver was either not an in-country asset , or was over ruled by the lead agent and ordered to run the check point.

To me , it would seem that at the very least , covert ops section in Rome , should be seriously audited and overhauled.

Declan

[Avenger]

I realize that even you have said this ,but it still strikes me , that given the high rate of speed , turning down local agency support and demonstrating bad judgement upon meeting an unexpected checkpoint, that this driver was either not an in-country asset , or was over ruled by the lead agent and ordered to run the check point.

Here we go again :rolleyes:

Your statement may be seen as true if we disregard the quoted account of the driver of the car completely, and instead go with the account of…well, who exactly? I still have seen no direct quotes from anyone who witnessed the incident that say what you are saying was what happened.

So, once again I ask someone, how do you know that that was what happened?

[Declan]

@Avenger

Here we go again :rolleyes:

Your statement may be seen as true if we disregard the quoted account of the driver of the car completely, and instead go with the account of…well, who exactly? I still have seen no direct quotes from anyone who witnessed the incident that say what you are saying was what happened.

So, once again I ask someone, how do you know that that was what happened?

Supposition really on my part, but if you mean the drivers account that gave the initial speed of 35-50 klicks an hour

On a street that has a posted limit of 50 klicks ,I am normally doing between 70 to 90 klicks an hour, should I take my foot off the accelerator then the speed will drop down to the quoted figure with in seconds, until that driver states that he was using cruise control, then he was not doing a constant speed one way or the other , the quoted figure was the last time he seen the speedo.

The lady journalist , as well described parts of her journey in terms of high speed and violent maneuvers.

Turning down local embassy support was also quoted, people that would know the situation on the ground and would have dealt with american or allied check points before.

As for the rest , ya supposition on my part , and expect that the enquiry will pretty much say the same thing.

Declan

[Tigers2B1]

Well at least the Italian government is taking an official stand on Sgrena’s version of ‘what really happened.’ Italy’s Justice Minister takes a position regarding Sgrena’s version of what occurred, calling her allegations “careless” and asking her to stop. Sgrena is a person who, quite honestly, I am beginning to believe may be a tad touched – and her present statement that she “over-dramatized” the video where she is shown sobbing and pleading for her life adds to this suspicion.

**…Italy’s justice minister urged former hostage Giuliana Sgrena on Friday to stop making “careless” accusations after being shot by US forces in Baghdad, saying she had already caused enough grief.

Sgrena has repeatedly suggesting US soldiers shot her on purpose and said on Friday she had little faith in a joint investigation by Italy and the United States into the “friendly fire” incident.

“She has created enormous problems for the government and also caused grief that perhaps was better avoided,” Justice Minister Roberto Castelli told reporters in Bologna….

…Many Italians have been irked by her descriptions of her kidnappers. She said they were not killers and that she may have over-dramatised her videotaped appeal from captivity for Italy to withdraw its 3,000 troops from Iraq.

She sobbed in the video and begged her family and the government to do something to save her life.

“Sgrena, I think, should perhaps be more careful. She has said a load of nonsense, speaks somewhat carelessly and makes careless comments,” Castelli said.

…Sgrena has told ANSA news agency she does not expect official inquiries into the incident to produce results “because we know how they end up”.

She also complained of being treated unfairly.

“I feel like I’m being accused for being kidnapped and then saved,” Sgrena said, speaking from a Rome hospital, where she is undergoing treatment for her injuries.**

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11965-4190767,00.html

[Tigers2B1]

@Avenger

…So, once again I ask someone, how do you know that that was what happened?

I think after it is all said in this thread it can be distilled this way - (ignoring Sgrena) - how fast the car was traveling once it reached the checkpoint and whether there were warnings given, whether noticed or not, before US personnel fired on the vehicle. If you don’t ignore Sgrena – than it’s much more complex and sinister than that -

[Blue_Ruin]

US: The soldiers used hand signals and bright lights and fired warning shots before hitting the car with shots
Italy: There was no warning. Three to four hundred rounds were fired, afterwards the car seats were covered in spent cartridges. The Americans forced the Italians to remain in the car without medical attention for an hour

I’m probably not the first person to catch this, but it’s a long thread and I don’t have long…

If the Italian’s car seats were covered with spent cartridges, wouldn’t that imply that shots were coming from within the car? Did they mean that there were bullets covering the seats, or did whoever it was who claimed that have no understanding of how firearms work?

I agree that if they wanted to execute them, there would be no survivors. I would not be suprised at all if they did do that, but in this case it’s clear it wasn’t. They had a tank on hand, they could have blown up the car and declared the remains unidentifiable.

[annaplurabelle]

@Blue Ruin

I agree that if they wanted to execute them, there would be no survivors. I would not be suprised at all if they did do that, but in this case it’s clear it wasn’t. They had a tank on hand, they could have blown up the car and declared the remains unidentifiable.

Not really. Too many people knew they were on that road.

In any case, here are some newer media reports:

US dinner behind extra Baghdad security that led to Italian agent’s death

BAGHDAD - Temporary checkpoints were set up on Baghdad’s airport road the night Italian agent Nicola Calipari was killed because the US ambassador in Iraq was travelling there for dinner, an embassy official said Friday.

“He was going to have dinner with General Casey at Camp Victory at his quarters at 7:30 pm (1630 GMT) and there was a hailstorm,” embassy spokesman Bob Callahan told reporters.

The spokesman was referring to an appointment at a US base at the airport between outgoing ambassador John Negroponte and the commander of US ground troops, General George Casey.

“Normally he would go there by helicopter, but the helicopter could not take him there, so he was taken out by a motorcade and got to General Casey’s around 8:00 o’clock (1700 GMT) that evening,” added Callahan.

After dinner, Negroponte flew back to the fortified Green Zone where the embassy is based and only found out about the Calipari shooting shortly after his return, according to Callahan.

“Those mobile checkpoints were established to enhance the security for the ambassador,” said Callahan.

**Another official at the embassy, who did not wish to be identified, explained that the term mobile does not mean the checkpoint is moving around like a patrol but that it is temporary and set up for a specific purpose.

“A mobile one is one set up for a purpose and goes away,” he said.**

So Negroponte had passed through before 8pm, and the checkpoint was still in place at 8:55pm, when the Italian car passed through…

Interesting bit from the Sunday Times

Gustavo Selva, chairman of the standing committee for foreign affairs in the lower house of parliament, said: “From now on there will be no more ransoms, no more concessions. If there are more kidnappings, the Italians will act in full agreement with the Americans. Intelligence services will try to locate the hostage and a military raid will be launched if necessary.”

In return, Bush agreed to Italy assigning a military officer and a diplomat to an American team investigating the incident.

Selva claimed that the attack on the Toyota Corolla carrying Sgrena and Nicola Calipari, the intelligence officer, to Baghdad airport had been prompted by a satellite monitoring system. This detected that their vehicle did not have clearance from US military authorities. A signal alerted a mobile checkpoint near the airport and its soldiers opened fire.

“The Italian team should have known what to expect, but it appears they didn’t realise how sophisticated the American military are,” said Selva.

My emphasis. Also of interest, from an interview with Sgrena

Did you manage to work out where you were?
“Yes, because I recognised the road. It was the alternative route to the airport, that one that as far as I know goes through the American-controlled green zone and avoids residential areas. It’s I road I’d already travelled several times”.

Did anyone else ever hear about ‘alternate’ roads to the airport? Another interview mentions it as well. Does that mean there is a ‘certain death road’ for ‘unimportant’ people? Kinda sad, isn’t it?

Anyway, more interview:

Did you come across any check points?
“None. No one stopped us anywhere. Of course, I was euphoric, and I can’t say whether there were any soldiers on the sides of the road. But I’d have remembered a check point”.

You were near the airport by this time.
“At a certain point, the driver said to Nicola, ‘It’s 700 metres. We’re almost at the airport. We’ve done it’. I remember thinking then that our safety was relative. Why say ‘we’ve done it’?”

One Pentagon version claims that you were driving at more than 100 miles an hour, 160 kilometres an hour.
“Absurd. Just after saying that, the driver braked because there was a sharp right-hand bend. He slowed right down. We certainly weren’t going fast. As we were coming out of the bend, the gunfire started. From the right and the rear. Burst of fire and single shots. It’s not true that they shot at the engine, from in front”.

The Americans claim to have fired into the air after training a light on you.
“No. The car windows shattered simultaneously. I sure about that, too. There were no shots in the air. I heard the gunfire and the windows exploded into a thousand fragments. There was no beam of light, no small light. It was dark, and I was looking around”.

What happened then?
“’They’re attacking us, they’re attacking us’, said the driver, who was grappling with his cellphone. Meanwhile, he pulled up the car. I couldn’t hear Calipari any more. I felt as if he was getting on top of me. I’m positive that he saved my life. I spoke to him. I could only hear a groan. I realised he was dying”.

What could you see from the car?
“A stationary armoured vehicle, poking out of the road on the right. It was only then that we were caught in a beam of light from the top of the armoured vehicle. A soldier opened a door on the right. When he saw us, I had the distinct feeling that he’d had a nasty surprise. He swore. I think he said, ‘Oh shit’. And when the others arrived, seven or eight coming from behind the armoured vehicle, I sensed their dejection”.

You spoke about a “hail of fire” and “handfuls of projectiles”. It seems it wasn’t like that.
“I saw the projectiles. I don’t know if there were 3-400 of them, but the interior was full of bullets. And I remember wondering how I was still alive with all those projectiles round about me”.

And the driver?
“From the ground, I heard him speaking into his phone. I could hear him shouting, ‘Nicola is dead. She’s not close to me but I can see her eyes are open’”.

Did they already know who you were in the hospital?
“They asked me at once for my particulars, but I didn’t notice any unusual reactions. It was only some time later that an American came up to the stretcher I was lying on and asked me from behind, ‘You’re the Italian journalist that was kidnapped, aren’t you?’”

[Well]

@annaplurabelle

Did anyone else ever hear about ‘alternate’ roads to the airport? Another interview mentions it as well. Does that mean there is a ‘certain death road’ for ‘unimportant’ people? Kinda sad, isn’t it?

Where in the hell did you get that from?

[annaplurabelle]

@Well

Where in the hell did you get that from?

Read the quote from the interview I cited, right above my statement (duh!). Also, from an interview with Radio Free Europe:

"There was no checkpoint and we were going at a normal speed. We were going about 50-60 kilometers an hour – which for a place like this was completely normal. We were not travelling along the normal road for the airport we were travelling on a privileged road that is less dangerous than the normal one where every day bombs explode."

I have not read the original transcripts in Italian so I haven’t been able to ascertain if it is a confusion in the translation. That is why I’m asking.

[Well]

@annaplurabelle

Read the quote from the interview I cited, right above my statement (duh!). Also, from an interview with Radio Free Europe:I have not read the original transcripts in Italian so I haven’t been able to ascertain if it is a confusion in the translation. That is why I’m asking.

Your first quote only said an alternate rout that went through the green zone. Your second quote intimates that there is a restricted road that makes it not a “death road”. Not that they are funneling unimportant people to a specific road that may or may not get them killed. Kind of like saying people living outside of the green zone have to live in “certain death areas”.

Not that I would place any bets on anything Sgrena says. The Italians pretty much told her to shut the fuck up and from what I understand the public there is a little irked at her because of her outlandish claims and pandering to the terrorists who kidnapped her.

[annaplurabelle]

@Declan

I realize that even you have said this ,but it still strikes me , that given the high rate of speed , turning down local agency support and demonstrating bad judgement upon meeting an unexpected checkpoint, that this driver was either not an in-country asset , or was over ruled by the lead agent and ordered to run the check point.

To me , it would seem that at the very least , covert ops section in Rome , should be seriously audited and overhauled.

I never said the driver ‘demonstrated’ bad judgement. This, and the bit about ‘the lead agent ordering a run past the checkpoint’, is completely your own speculation.

@Well

@annaplurabelle

Why is it that my speculations warrant your qualifier when Tigers speculations did not, until now? He’d been speculating long before I appeared in this thread.

Because I don’t think he is speculating or guessing any more than I think you are. He has an accusatory tone to the Itallians, just as you have an accusatory tone towards the US. It wasn’t my intent to speak for Tigers, but just point that out to you.

There is a difference here - the Italians were fired upon by US forces. An Italian national is dead. Under the circumstances, I find it classless and repugnant that anyone would feel the need to preemptively smear the Italians, who are, after all, allies of the US. Perhaps this is one reason why the US has so few allies, no?

As to what Tigers has been posting about: Is it relevant to this ‘accident’ that Sgrena is a communist, who has written articles critical of US policy, or that the Italians most likely paid a ransom for her release? If you do think those facts are relevant, than you have no business complaining if they are put forth as a possible motive for a deliberate attack.

From the Independent:

The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. “I never said that they wanted to kill me,” she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."

In an interview with The Independent, her partner, Pier Scolari, said: "None of us is so stupid as to think the Americans did it on purpose. But the dynamic was that of an ambush and we want a convincing explanation of what happened, because the first American explanation was totally false."

Does that sound ‘sinister’ to you? Is it so unreasonable to expect a full investigation and explanation as to why the Italians were fired upon?

[annaplurabelle]

@Well

Your first quote only said an alternate rout that went through the green zone. Your second quote intimates that there is a restricted road that makes it not a “death road”. Not that they are funneling unimportant people to a specific road that may or may not get them killed. Kind of like saying people living outside of the green zone have to live in “certain death areas”.

Your point? Either there are alternate roads or not. I am asking. Obviously you have no idea.

Not that I would place any bets on anything Sgrena says. The Italians pretty much told her to shut the fuck up and from what I understand the public there is a little irked at her because of her outlandish claims and pandering to the terrorists who kidnapped her.

There you go again.

You can’t ‘ignore’ an eyewitness because you dislike her politics. And again, either there is an alternate road or not. Surely this fact can be ascertained regardless of politics.

BTW, one quote from a minister does not constitute ‘The Italians’. What you don’t know about Italian politics, and/or the mindset of ‘The Italians’ is a lot. You are obviously just spreading US right-wing talking points here. Again I would ask you why you feel the need to smear an ally? I wouldn’t be keen on scapegoating a US soldier re this incident, and it would seem (even by Sgrena’s interviews) that no one is trying to blame ‘The US troops’. So what is the point of you and Tigers trying to smear Sgrena? Is it a preemptive smear because you know she has info about Falluja and/or abuses to Iraqi citizens?