Was Freed Italian Hostage's Guard Murdered by US Forces?

[matt]

@clairobscur

Problem is that this kind of “tragic accident” happens all the time, as reported by news outlets. The only difference is that in this case, the victims were westerners, not Irakis, and high profile ones at that.

I agree with just about everything you said. My comment was purely a response to the OP, disputing the contention that this was murder.

@annaplurabelle

And no, I’m not blaming ‘The Troops’ (US). Most likely a LIHOP via ‘mis-communication’ in the chain of command. Perhaps a sniper in place to ensure the hit to Calipari, under the cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car. Lots of paid snipers in Iraq, on all sides.

I can’t see any scenario where a sniper makes sense. The troops would have to be told something to ensure that they fired on the car. If they were told the truth (we are going to murder an Italian civilian, this sniper guy is going to do it, all you have to do is junk the engine as is SOP) then there was no reason not to finish her off afterwards, along with the witnesses.

If they were told lies (there’s a high level insurgent leader coming in the next car, wer’re going to take him out) then the whole thing is blown when the troops check the car out afterwards. You’d have a whole bunch of troops pretty pissed at being used and lied to to commit a murder, and made to look trigger-happy and incompetent on the world stage.

So I still go with accident. Possibly one of many such accidents resulting from a flawed SOP, but an accident.

[zuma]

@annaplurabelle

Again, how many ‘bad guys’ have US forces bagged under the current rules of engagement at checkpoints???

Anna, the purpose of the checkpoints is not to “bag” car-bombers. It is to prevent car-bombings of places behind the checkpoints in the first place.

Your question is like asking “how many gun-wielding maniacs have airport metal detectors found?”.

While I am quite busy in my pursuits in life and sadly cannot offer a truly educated guess at how many innocent deaths have been prevented, I am certain it is far, far more than the poor souls who have died at the checkpoints.

That said, I do support a full investigation which hopefully results in improved checkpoint procedures, if possible.

[vibrotronica]

I find it implausable in the extreme that any car under any circumstances (barring a Formula 1 race) could get up to 100 MPH in a crowded city like Baghdad.

[Well]

@vibrotronica

I find it implausable in the extreme that any car under any circumstances (barring a Formula 1 race) could get up to 100 MPH in a crowded city like Baghdad.

Most airport roads don’t go through downtown. From my experience they usually connect the city to the airport.

[xbuckeye]

I don’t really want to jump in too deep as most of my opinions have already been stated by others, but I do want to point out that 40 KPH 700 M from the airport building is speeding. If you do the math, the car is inside the building in a little over 11 seconds. Forget Baghdad, approach any major airport at that speed and see if nobody notices. This is faster than the speed limit in most American cities.
And, as has already been alluded to, when you are standing, cars seem to go faster, but when you are in the car, it always seems to be going slower. Especially when the car was previously going faster. Next time you are out on the Interstate, drive 85 for a while, then get off at the next exit and take the ramp at 35. It seems like you are barely going anywhere.
The last point I want to make is about the construction of road blocks. The more durable you make them, the more vehicles you exclude from them. A bunch of tight turns means that large trucks can’t maneuver through them. To get military and civilian supplies through, they would have to make an alternate route. The alternate route would then be a weak point where car bombers would be more likely to attack which would make the more fortified checkpoints pointless. If you do as someone suggested and make the blockade out of movable trucks, then the people who move the trucks are going to be exposed and could be killed.

I think the Italians need to take more than a little bit of responsibility in this situation. The reporter is sounding more like Geraldo every time I read her talking about hails of bullet, etc.

[Evil_One]

An investigation will be done…but will be pointless because both sides have their minds made up. The ideology of some people is better served to believe that this is some sort of political conspiracy to kill a dangerous woman with a deadly secret rather than a driver who can’t figure out which pedal is the brake. Have I also made up my mind in advance? Yes. It’s much more plausible to belive that this was an accident at a checkpoint rather than some grand plot.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Evil One

An investigation will be done…but will be pointless because both sides have their minds made up. The ideology of some people is better served to believe that this is some sort of political conspiracy to kill a dangerous woman with a deadly secret rather than a driver who can’t figure out which pedal is the brake. Have I also made up my mind in advance? Yes. It’s much more plausible to belive that this was an accident at a checkpoint rather than some grand plot.

…there are three threads open on this subject at the moment-how many people believe this “grand plot”? How many people believe in a political consiracy? I haven’t counted any…

[Tigers2B1]

@vibrotronica

I find it implausable in the extreme that any car under any circumstances (barring a Formula 1 race) could get up to 100 MPH in a crowded city like Baghdad.

The military calls the Baghdad airport road “Route Irish” and it isn’t in Baghdad as suggested – but is the connecting road to the airport. It is a VERY dangerous road where a large number of ambushes and car bombs have been used by the insurgents against those on this road and personnel assigned to help protect this road. This linked article describes that seven miles of road –

**Snipers, bombs beset Baghdad’s airport road

BAGHDAD, Iraq — It’s perhaps the most dangerous stretch of road in Iraq.

Snipers lie in ambush. Drivers sometimes flash guns, watching one another warily as they careen through at high speed. Suicide car bombers lurk, ready to swerve into the path of a U.S. military convoy.

It’s the road to Baghdad’s international airport. Called Route Irish by the U.S. military, the road is also known as “ambush alley.”

Barely 7 miles long, the four-lane highway is emerging as a symbol of U.S. troubles in Iraq. Despite the presence of more than 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, the road is such a death trap that the American and British embassies last week declared it off limits for civilian personnel.

Diplomats now must use helicopters to get to the airport from the fortified Green Zone of ministries and embassies downtown. Anyone else who’s leaving Baghdad by airplane or bringing supplies from the airport to downtown still has to brave the road, an essential link used to truck in huge amounts of military equipment and commercial goods every day….

…Roadside explosions triggered by remote control happen almost daily. Suicide car bombers are increasingly frequent, including one every day for five days straight in the past week. In the past month, 14 suicide car bombs have blown up along the highway, five of them targeting civilian convoys.

Foreign contractors and journalists needing to catch a plane scream down the highway in bulletproof cars at up to 100 mph, hitting the brakes only when they see a U.S. military convoy. When convoys move along the road, an American soldier in the last vehicle, keeping alert for suicide bombers, routinely emerges from a turret to raise a fist. It’s a sign for the trailing cars to back off — or risk being fired on….**

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002109773_iraqroad05.html

[annaplurabelle]

@matt

I can’t see any scenario where a sniper makes sense. The troops would have to be told something to ensure that they fired on the car. If they were told the truth (we are going to murder an Italian civilian, this sniper guy is going to do it, all you have to do is junk the engine as is SOP) then there was no reason not to finish her off afterwards, along with the witnesses.

If they were told lies (there’s a high level insurgent leader coming in the next car, wer’re going to take him out) then the whole thing is blown when the troops check the car out afterwards. You’d have a whole bunch of troops pretty pissed at being used and lied to to commit a murder, and made to look trigger-happy and incompetent on the world stage.

So I still go with accident. Possibly one of many such accidents resulting from a flawed SOP, but an accident.

I agree that an accident is most likely.

But it remains that the troops did fire on the car, so the alternative scenarios must be considered as well.

We don’t know what the troops at the checkpoint were told. I don’t imagine they were told anything like your hypothetical. When I said LIHOP I meant they most likely wouldn’t be told about the Italian convoy, even if the US knew and authorised it. That’s not complete insurance that they would fire on the car, but certainly would increase the odds of an ‘accident’, no?

As it turns out, it is now reported that the checkpoint was a temporary set up to enhance security for the passage of U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte.

Why Negroponte didn’t use a helicopter, as Tigers cite suggests as a more likely scenario for US VIP’s, or whether or not he had already passed the checkpoint is still unknown.

[annaplurabelle]

@zuma

Anna, the purpose of the checkpoints is not to “bag” car-bombers. It is to prevent car-bombings of places behind the checkpoints in the first place.

Your question is like asking “how many gun-wielding maniacs have airport metal detectors found?”.

I understand that.

But if the policy at airport security was to shoot first and ask questions later, and resulted in numerous innocent civilian deaths, I think we would question the policy.

[Well]

@annaplurabelle

I understand that.

But if the policy at airport security was to shoot first and ask questions later, and resulted in numerous innocent civilian deaths, I think we would question the policy.

My point was you don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. To expand on the current *analogy: How many terrorists have been busted at airport security by strip search? Many people find that procedure questionable. BUt you don’t advocate the removal of security checkpoints in airports because you do not like the procedure of stripsearch.

*Not that I am comparing stripsearches to the deaths of innocent civillians.

[Tigers2B1]

@annaplurabelle

…Why Negroponte didn’t use a helicopter, as Tigers cite suggests as a more likely scenario for US VIP’s, or whether or not he had already passed the checkpoint is still unknown.

Information as to why he may not have use a helicopter - was provided in your link –

… Senior U.S. officials such as the ambassador, who is by far seen as the most important American in Iraq, normally travel by helicopter to avoid roadside bombs and insurgent attacks along the airport road, which are frequent. But U.S. officials in Iraq often vary travel routes and methods so as not to be predictable.

[Ale]

@John Carter of Mars

…If there’s any fault here, it’s on the driver. This wasn’t an un-informed civilian. He was a professional and knew the circumstances and likely consequences.

Moral of story: If you don’t want to get shot at a checkpoint, don’t attempt to evade it.

Why would they try to evade the checkpoint?, really, is there any reason for that?

Why would a “professional and knew the circumstances and likely consequences” driver would drive right into a certain shooting and possible death if there was no reason at all to do so?

I´ve asked similar questions three times already and noone has answered yet.

[annaplurabelle]

@Tigers2B1

Information as to why he may not have use a helicopter - was provided in your link –

… Senior U.S. officials such as the ambassador, who is by far seen as the most important American in Iraq, normally travel by helicopter to avoid roadside bombs and insurgent attacks along the airport road, which are frequent. But U.S. officials in Iraq often vary travel routes and methods so as not to be predictable.

So we are dealing with an abnormal situation. A complication in the investigation, no?

Again, it is unknown whether or not Negroponte had passed the checkpoint. Or why this route was chosen over the more normal procedure of using a helicopter. We also don’t know his itinerary for that day - why was he going to the airport, or if he even flew out of Baghdad that evening.

[annaplurabelle]

@Ale

Why would they try to evade the checkpoint?, really, is there any reason for that?

Why would a “professional and knew the circumstances and likely consequences” driver would drive right into a certain shooting and possible death if there was no reason at all to do so?

I´ve asked similar questions three times already and noone has answered yet.

This is what troubled me too.

But as we are told now, this was a ‘temporary’ checkpoint, set up less than 1km from the airport. An abnormal and unexpected checkpoint.

The Italian driver was the head of SISMI ops in Baghdad. I assume he was familiar with the checkpoint procedures and the road to the airport. Perhaps he did not expect this new, temporary checkpoint, which by accounts so far was located after a steep turn in the road.

[Tigers2B1]

@annaplurabelle

So we are dealing with an abnormal situation. A complication in the investigation, no?

Again, it is unknown whether or not Negroponte had passed the checkpoint. Or why this route was chosen over the more normal procedure of using a helicopter. We also don’t know his itinerary for that day - why was he going to the airport, or if he even flew out of Baghdad that evening.

What do you mean it’s “abnormal” ?? – it says in your linked article that the military switches methods of transportation to avoid being predictable. What’s “abnormal,” illogical, or hard to understand about that?

[Tigers2B1]

@Tigers2B1

What do you mean it’s “abnormal” ?? – it says in your linked article that the military switches methods of transportation to avoid being predictable. What’s “abnormal,” illogical, or hard to understand about that?

Wait - I see what you mean I think ---- “normal” means 51% and greater ---- “abnormal” means 49% and less -

With that — I sense another one of your “ideas” coming –

[vibrotronica]

So, Tiger, if everyone speeds on the airport road because it’s so dangerous, then why should this particular case justify a shooting? And if it was an unannouced roadblock to protect Negroponte, then how was the Italian party supposed to know it was there?

Look, I don’t believe this was anything but an extremely unfortunate and deadly cock-up, but your reasoning and arguments in this thread are those of a person who has already made up their mind and is simply ad hocing any new information to fit it into his preconceived notions of guilt and blame. I also find the speed with which you can go from loving the Italians because they’re a part of the Coalition to saying they are fuck-ups who deserve to be shot very disturbing. You are not serving the Dope’s traditional mission of fighting ignorance. For the most part, you’ve just been talking out of your ass.

Oh, and this on preview:

What do you mean it’s “abnormal” ?? – it says in your linked article that the military switches methods of transportation to avoid being predictable. What’s “abnormal,” illogical, or hard to understand about that?

Can’t that argument be applied to the Italian party as well, who were trying to get a rescued hostage out of the country as quickly and safely as possible? Why is this OK when the Americans do it but justification for killing when the Italians do it?

[annaplurabelle]

@Tigers2B1

Wait - I see what you mean I think ---- “normal” means 51% and greater ---- “abnormal” means 49% and less -

No. Incorrect. Perhaps you are confused. If you’re sure you are not, please provide a cite for your definition of ‘normal’.

[Tigers2B1]

@annaplurabelle

No. Incorrect. Perhaps you are confused. If you’re sure you are not, please provide a cite for your definition of ‘normal’.

Look – go for it - “Abnormal” but with a slight variation on your bolding –

… Senior U.S. officials such as the ambassador, who is by far seen as the most important American in Iraq, normally travel by helicopter to avoid roadside bombs and insurgent attacks along the airport road, which are frequent. But U.S. officials in Iraq often vary travel routes and methods so as not to be predictable.