Well, perhaps I am a sloppy reader at that. Your appologies for my fault are gladly accepted. 
So, let me rephrase then: Are you just speculating on how the US COULD have attempted to assassinate Calipari, or do you really believe the US DID try and assassinate him?
-XT
Originally Posted by annaplurabelle
Are we to understand that you actually believe this supposed chatter? :dubious:
If so, why let the remaining occupants in the car live?
I realise you didn’t kill anyone Xt - you used ‘we’, so I replied in context. And I doubt you could make a case of me ‘disregarding’ you.
Please keep in mind that we are speculating. I agree with you in that we haven’t got enough info to assert anything as fact-based. I just get frustrated with that concept because we never seem to get enough info. YMMV, of course 
Yikes. For international reporting, the Christian Science Monitor is one of the most respected newspapers in the country.
Can I take you up on that bet, given that so far everyone in this entire thread, including the leftists, seem to think that the idea of an attempted assassination is hoo-hoo? (Well, AnnaPluraBelle may or may not think that SOMEONE was assassinated, although it’s a bit unclear.)
And if I can’t, can I ask that, in the future, you at least wait to see if your projected Liberal Stupidity occurrs before gloating about it?
I am sorry, kiddo, because I think you’re a fun guy, apart from all the confusion.
As I said, I’m only going by the chatter in Italy. It’s not central that the US targetted him, but as the primo superpower, I assume the US (ie, CIA) was aware, if not involved. CIA (the ‘new’ post-purge CIA mind you) could have been sending a message to SISMI - or not.
Iraq is teeming with spooks and assorted cohorts. Too soon to say. I think Tigers illustrated the motive if US was an ‘interested’ party.
Funnily enough, US came out with new ‘preemptive’ cointel policy just when Calipari was hit:
I don’t know how interested you are in this so I won’t get into everything, but: Calipari had many enemies - in Italy and outside of - so no shortage of suspects/conspiracy theories.
I’m basing all this on previous experience with SISMI/CIA/spook MO scenarios too. For anyone unaware of the history, I’m sure it will look like tinfoil stuff. For those people, I suggest you google “Operation Gladio” and get back to me, before you start hurling around ‘paranoid’ and ‘delusional’. Again, my thanks in advance.
Sweet Jesus – don’t attach my name to any of this! I didn’t illustrate anything.
Wow. This thread is still alive…
There seems to be a dearth of facts surrounding this case, but if anyone wants as close to as first hand a view as any of us civilians will get of how freakin’ dangerous it is to drive around Baghdad, please see if you can locate a showing of the FRONTLINE epsisode titled A COMPANY OF SOLDIERS. I don’t know how to summarize it here, but basically every car on the road is a potential bomb suspect and the tension level of the soldiers is so high you can feel it. This is a war zone where life and death decisions are made in split seconds every day of the week.
How could an accident happen? Watch this show and you’ll be asking: How can accidents NOT happen every freakin’ day?
Clearly this incident deserves a full investigation. But don’t be at all surprised if there just isn’t a good answer either way. Again, this is a war zone, not an episode of SCI where all we need to do is to get Grissom’s team to run a series of DNA samples or check a suspect’s cell phone records.
A Letter to the Editor today in the NYT, from a newly returned soldier:
Originally posted by Craig A. McNeil:
Just for some perspective.
What’s unclear? How many italics do you need? I said I was speculating, and/or guessing.
An ‘innocent’ screw-up wouldn’t surprise me at all. I hope it’s true; none of us need more intrigue in this situation.
Frankly, I would have avoided this thread if not for the rabid right-wing smear campaign against Sgrena, and the Italians in general. Seems like a set-up to position the Italians as the new French (I only wonder what will replace ‘Freedom Fries’). I’ve heard enough about ‘stupid’ Eye-talians to last me a lifetime.
In general, the ‘anti-American’ sentiment from Italy in particular comes from the idea that the US exempts itself from responsibility for its actions through ‘might makes right’ and arrogance, rather than a critical assessment of the evidence. This isn’t the first time Italians have suffered loss of life via US forces.
To pile on with charges of stupidity/incompetence and the smear campaign against the left-leaning Sgrena is OTT (I realise not all dopers have done that, but it is an organised campaign on the right-wing blogs and cable news outlets). Reverse the situation and tell me any of you wouldn’t be repulsed and indignant.
My speculative scenario is a possibility, but I’ve never asserted an ‘innocent’ screw-up isn’t a more likely possibility.
But I don’t see how that should lead to a ‘pitting’ of the kidnapped journo, the assumption that experienced Italian agents must be at fault, or that ransom payments made by Italy somehow justifies the death of Calipari at a makeshift checkpoint less than one km from the airport.
I also notice Well hasn’t answered my question about the efficiency of these checkpoint shoot-ups.
That would be irrelevant on the subject of having checkpoints tagos, or you or I, deems proper and not having them at all.
You see. checkpoints are not there so that soldiers can shoot car bombers. They are usually there to keep the bad guys away from a location.
And I think it’s absurd to ask about effeciency when you talk about self defense. Are you seriously suggesting that sodliers not fire at threatening vehicles because it may not do any good anyway?
The plot thickens ----
Recall Sgrena’s statement that they were traveling at an unsafe speeds early in their trip, “almost losing control” – but stated that once they were at the inspection point, they were traveling at about 25 mph. There seems to be some dispute regarding this. Apparently there will be statements that her car was traveling “in excess of 100 mph” and that the statement that they had traveled through previous checkpoints during that trip – is also false.
From abcnews.com
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/International/story?id=563069&page=1
Well, do any of the other soldiers remember seeing them at other checkpoints? A carful of Italians might stand out.
Having seen the car, assuming we’ve got the right pictures this time, Sgrena’s story about hundreds of bullets makes no sense. I see no reason to believe she’s right about the speed, either. We’re still missing too much information here.
‘Bad guys’, ‘car bombers’ - what’s the difference???
Obviously you can’t answer the (original) question.
If ‘self defence’ is the primary objective, then it seems to me the ideal would be to leave.
What is a ‘threatening vehicle’? A panicked civilian Iraqi? An illiterate (ie, can’t read the signpost) civilian Iraqi?
Again, how many ‘bad guys’ have US forces bagged under the current rules of engagement at checkpoints???
I thought the US forces were there as liberators and to maintain order. Perhaps your understanding of the objectives and mine are not the same.
Also, if you really think efficiency is ‘absurd’, remind me to not recommend you for promotion.
I think that’s called “desertion”.
I did answer it. I said it was irrelevant. Unless you explain to me how checkpoints need to catch bad guys in order to be there my answer stands.
I havn’t read their ROE, but I assume its any unidentified vehicle that doesn’t respond to cammands and is close enough to damage the checkpoint area. So, in my mind, yes.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? It’s still irrelevant
No, I have a similar understanding. However, the objective of the troops at the checkpoint are to keep certain people from passing through and to use force if necessary.
If you want to use the term “efficiency” in relation to a life and death situation, I wouldn’t want you to be able to recommend me for anything.
Forgot to answer this. There are more bad guy than just car bombers that would like to get through checkpoints. My point was that checkpoints are not staging areas where they can kill car bombers. It just so happens that car bombers do attack checkpoints and one of the answers to that is procedures that you and I may disagree with but it doesn’t invalidate the reason the checkpoint is there to begin with.
Well it’s nice to see someone else saw the frontline film (I already posted the direct links to the video itself not just once but twice
I’m surprised noone else has brought it up because it showed an actual direct shooting of a car at a “checkpoint” (hastily put together roadblock if you could even call it that) and gives you a good solid idea of why people die. It’s about 9 minutes into the first chapter. Better to see the whole thing in context though.
So, after four pages of reading, I’ll summarize:
The Italians ransom a hostage, but they don’t want the Americans to know about it.
To this end, they use some high level spooks to sneak said hostage past the American checkpoints. This involves high speed driving on a dangerous road after curfew hours.
All’s going well until, just a short distance from the airport, they run into an American checkpoint at an unexpected location.
The driver doesn’t respond to warning lights or about nine seconds of warning shots. (Ten seconds of shots, right? We’ve established that ten seconds of automatic weapon fire into a vehicle reduces everything inside to mush, so the first nine seconds must have been warnings, and the last second was fired at the engine block.)
Somebody gets killed.
Conclusion:
Looks to me like the actions of the troops at the roadblock were entirely reasonable under the circumstances. They did what they were supposed to do.
If there’s any fault here, it’s on the driver. This wasn’t an un-informed civilian. He was a professional and knew the circumstances and likely consequences.
Moral of story: If you don’t want to get shot at a checkpoint, don’t attempt to evade it.
As far as the OP is concerned, it should be very clear that if this was a plot to kill Sgrena, she would be dead.
Hasn’t been confirmed.
Hasn’t been confirmed. They passed through two checkpoints, I’ve not even seen a suggestion that they were ‘sneaking’ through, whatever that would be.
None of that has been confirmed.
How do you know. Yet another person posting in this thread who appears to think that they were there.
Based purely on some things that the American soldiers have apparantly said (though I’m not sure I’ve seen direct quotes, ignoring everything the driver of the car has said, and some stuff that you have just flat out assumed.
That much we can agree on.