Aren’t you providing a motive for ‘intent to kill’ with your posts about ransom money?
The money wasn’t brought to Iraq. If money changed hands (and I’m guessing it did), it happened in Abu Dhabi - Nicola Calipari’s stop off before Baghdad.
He was a high level SISMI agent, with lots of contacts and experience in ME and elsewhere - a valuable asset. I’m only going by the chatter that is just beginning in Italy, but there are numerous reasons why it’s no surprise that he was hit.
And no, I’m not blaming ‘The Troops’ (US). Most likely a LIHOP via ‘mis-communication’ in the chain of command. Perhaps a sniper in place to ensure the hit to Calipari, under the cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car. Lots of paid snipers in Iraq, on all sides.
Again, just a guess (and I also guess we’ll never know the whole truth), but if it was a hit with ‘intent’, the target was Calipari.
Of course, Sgrena is still a convenient target for some organised right-wing smearing, but that’s a red herring, IMO.
Word is, Berlu paid ‘out of pocket’ for the (surviving)Italian ‘contractors’ last year - just in time for the election…
I have thought about it and I think that the thousands of those killed by insurgents are not worth risking not doing checkpoints at all. For you to advocate that risk in leiu of what you personally deem as a proper checkpoint system is naive.
I’m providing a motive for the Americans to kill Calipari? Albeit unwittingly? I’ve done it ---- a motive after the ransom is paid mind you – and Sgrena is being driven back to the airport. But a motive still ---- yet, a motive because?? Well because the Americans knew all along about the ransom and then decided to kill Calipari after it’s paid?? annapluralbelle I must say, “inspiration” doesn’t describe that — IF — IF they wanted to kill an agent of an allied country I’m certain they’d do it just as you’ve suggested -
Assuming, just assuming for this post that what you assert is right ---- how does this connect with the “intent to kill” implied by tagos and suggested by you?
Oh christ — close the gates before more of ‘em escape –— Let me get you version straight – “a sniper” killed Calipari “under cover of the dozen shots fired by US forces on the car” ------- Now that makes one hell of a lot of sense annapluralbelle – yep, slice it, dice it, hold it upsidedown, – one hell of a lot of sense.
Coming back to Earth — Here’s the BBC report of an earlier random and “admission” (as it goes) of that ransom by the Italians –
No direct connection. Just trying to educate you about the art of ransom negotiations. It’s more complex than your posts would indicate. But separate from the reasons why Calipari might be a target for elimination. Sorry if you’re confused.
If we are speculating an intentional hit (if, mind you), that would be the ideal (ie, simplest) scenario. Or do you have a better one?
I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with the kidnap/rescue info re the ‘two Simona’s’. What’s your point?
I think you might need more of an education re the history of ransom negotiations/payments. Are you really so shocked (shocked!) about the concept? This isn’t about Berlu, or the current Italian admin. This is a very old story. One could even say that Berlu is only emulating a(n) SOP inspired by the US founding fathers (to use an example you might relate to).
I’m assuming you’re interested in this story - you’ve posted in this thread and the one in the Pit - in both cases highlighting the angle of ransom payments, and how they might not be in the interests of the US occupation. Or at the very least, evil in some way, and therefore deserving of a lethal outcome.
Yes or no? So what is your point?
That ransom payments defy the ‘Bush doctrine’ and therefore the Italians deserved to be fired upon??? Is that the gist of it?
Or, are you asking me to believe that two high level SISMI agents had no idea about the SOP at a US checkpoint, and the potential dangers therein, and therefore tried to speed through it???
Stupid Italians? Evil Italians? What???
Please try not to insult me with your answers this time. I don’t really care what you think of me personally, but I’d like to know if you have any knowledge that might interest me. In lieu of that knowledge, at least try to be more clever and amusing in your replies. Thanks in advance.
Ok, was going to get into this back and forth, but think instead I’ll answer Monocracy’s cite (just noticed you answered my own…sorry for the delay).
Lets go through you cite a bit. Here are the discussion points about why Guiliana Sgrena is claiming she was attacked:
So, the US attacked her because of her opposition to the Bush adminstration (if this was the case the bodies would be piled high in the steets of America, but we won’t go there), and because she has sooper sekrit information about Fallujah known only to her that the US doesn’t want out. :dubious:
Anyway, to get to your point:
Here is what Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch had to say:
So, at the end of 2003 (think about that date and how long the US had been in Iraq at that time…and what had been going on) there were 18 documented cases of civilian deaths…11 of which occured at checkpoints. I notice he didn’t trot out stats for the end of 2004 (which I’m sure he had available)…one wonders why. Did it get worse…or better? Or stay the same.
Not to be cold here, but 18 accidental deaths in a hot war zone, 11 of which occured at checkpoints seems…well, fairly low to me. This doesn’t seem to indicate a checkpoint system seriously flawed, even taking into account the 5 month timeframe. Is there a problem? Perhaps…hard to say. Is it a MAJOR problem…well, from THIS data (sketchy as it is) I’d have to say no. BTW, he goes on to say that there have been improvements to the system since his report was issued (presumably sometime early in 2004)…i.e. when we first got into Iraq perhaps our checkpoint system was less than optimal…and we fixed it to make it better.
To go on, here is what Paul Rieckhoff (first lieutenant supposedly stationed in Iraq and who was at ‘countless’ of these checkpoints) had to say:
He goes on to say:
Seems a reasonable system to me. You have a series of signs at intervals to the checkpoint. Barbed wire and presumably other road block type devices (he doesn’t really go into detail here unfortunately). You use light and hand signals to further help folks know to slow down. As a last resort you fire warning shots…at the engine block.
Here is some additional dialogue between the commentator and Abrahams:
Anyway, I thank you Monocracy for the cite. Again I’m going to point out that, as far as the OP goes and what happened in this particular incident many of you are making assumptions by siding with one or the other parties telling THEIR side of the story. I think we can pretty much disreguard the tin foil part about the US wanting to kill this woman because of her opposition to Bush and her sooper sekirt information…if we wanted her dead we wouldn’t have killed the driver.
At any rate, we simply don’t have enough data to go on as far as who was at fault…its whoever you believe, and I choose to believe none of them, having seen first hand how bad people are at observation under such conditions. Perhaps the investigation will find something…but I have my doubts there, and not due to any conspiricy by the US to keep the facts from getting to the public.
As far as the hijack and tagos continued attempt to paint the US checkpoint system as seriously flawed, I’ve seen no real evidence of it. 11 civilian deaths over a 5 month period is certainly tragic…but it is somewhat to be expected in that kind of environment, especially where insurgents regularly dress up in civilian clothes and carry out suicide style attacks at those very checkpoints. In fact, as I said earlier, 11 deaths, or even bumping that up by multiplying it by 10 (as an estimate for how many have died since then…probably on the high side but what the hell) is a surprisingly small number of casualties considering…and considering the amount of traffic that goes through these checkpoints regularly (no data on this but I’ve seen cars lined up on news report going through such beasts regularly).
BTW, since I wasn’t clear, the deaths were for Baghdad, not all of Iraq. However, considering the population density in and around Baghdad, and considering he didn’t give data on the rest of the country (again, better or worse? Makes you wonder why he didn’t trot out figures for the entire country though) I’d say this would be the heaviest area where such incidents would occur. Sorry though for not making that plainer in my post though…I see I’m implying this was for the whole country and I didn’t mean it to come across that way.
"deserving of a lethal outcome’?? Where and what did you conjure that out of? Show me? --Well, what is it? Untwist them words annapluralbelle– Fan it out so I can count it – cause I don’t believe it’s all there. How do you get stuff like that out of ANY of my posts?
I know this was directed at Tigers2B1 anna, but I’m going to give my two cents worth here.
Or, it could be that the Italians were unaware of this mobile checkpoints location, especially since they didn’t see fit to check through with US authorities before moving. It could be that they were surprised, and didn’t KNOW it was a US checkpoint, but thought they were being ambushed or something…or they just panicked. It could be that the US soldiers, seeing an unknown vehicle acting strangly got jumpy and decided to fire some warning shots into the engine to stop it, and a stray round killed the driver. Or it could be that the US soldiers were napping and caught by surprise, didn’t have signs out yet, didn’t actually try and flag down the car, and because they were jumpy reacted badly and opened fire. We simply don’t know, though I know where my own Occam’s Razor comes down on…but thats just me.
Well, assuming it was a fuckup by someone, I always like to say Stupid HUMANS…doing what stupid humans always do, fucking up. I don’t think there is enough evidence one way or the other to say WHO was being stupid here…if anyone. It could just as well simply be a tragic mistake after all…unavoidable when you consider the various factors going on there.
annaplurabelle, I’m a bit confused here…help me out. Are you just speculating on how the US COULD have attempted to assassinate Guiliana Sgrena, or do you really believe the US DID try and assassinate her to prevent…whatever?
Well, since you want to nitpick, I didn’t kill anyone. Yes, I’ve read the cites…my mistake, its been a couple of days and I do have other things on my mind besides this story. I was aware Calipari wasn’t the driver…just a slip there by calling him so. So, basically on this you are going to disreguard everything else I wrote ehe? Interesting.
