There is ample evidence that people, especially Iraqi civilians, are unsure of where the checkpoints are when they approach them and what exactly they are required to do. Perhaps you can detail the steps that the US military has taken to inform the populace of the correct procedure and to make sure that checkpoints are easily visible and identifiable?
Ummmm – The terrorists have reportedly produced a video where they claim that the Italian government offered, but they refused, a ransom for Sgrena’s release. The terrorists indicated that they released Sgrena without a ransom because “After some research we have decided … this is not one of the principles of the resistance…” Point taken.
Regarding the purported ransom, this video statement both contradicts the Italian official line (that no money is being paid to terrorists for release of captives) AND contradicts the earlier ‘unofficial’ leak that a ransom of between 10 to 13.4 million was paid to the terrorists for Sgrena’s release. Conclusion: Someone is clearly lying about ransom money. —
– If the terrorists did decline the money offered, this may be the last opportunity for this style of terrorist fund raising since, it appears, the Italian government may be changing their policy. A ‘prior’ policy which, according to some inside government, allowed these money payments. Sadly, it appears the policy change isn’t occurring because money paid to terrorists might fund bombings and other similar projects – leading to the deaths of large numbers of innocent people – but rather because the policy seems to be leading to larger numbers of Italians being kidnapped. Sad, very sad. (Note again however – it is the ‘official line’ that ransom is not paid and never was.)
Here’s a portion of the short article and the link –
Best as I can tell this is vehicle they were riding in.
Perhaps an Italian speaking doper can translate.
Link is from a DU post!
Six photo’s total, none of which affirm the shootout described.
Looks like one round thru the windshield, maybe another on the LF tire.
Assasination attempt? Don’t think so!
IMMAGINI: l’auto colpita dai soldati Usa
Great find lostronin! — it does seem la Repubblica.it has just published pictures of a car (BUT not a pickup truck as they reported earlier??) that it says is the car in which Sgrena was riding and Calipari was killed. There are six pictures – separately linked -
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/6.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/5.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/4.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/3.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/2.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gallerie/cronaca/autosgrena/1.html
Here is a pretty good PBS interview with a well-spoken lieutenant who served in Iraq at many checkpoints: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june05/checkpoint_3-7.html
It is obvious that the U.S. military is not using an obstacle system to slow down approaching vehicles. If they were, it would eliminate the need to fire on cars that are approaching too fast. There is definitely some type of failure in higher command. Someone needs to improve the checkpoint system. It’s not as if the military never uses this tactic, as there is an Air Force base in my state that does this.
Note that an obstacle system doesn’t necessarily have to slow down traffic. If one obstacle were mobile, such as a truck, it could be moved back and forth, depending on whether you want to slow cars down to a crawl, or freely allow traffic to pass.
The Christian Science Monitor article is just an example of how Iraqis can get confused with the U.S.'s current sytem of checkpoints. It isn’t incredible to believe that civilians do not know proper checkpoint procedures.
Pjen has been riding this horse for a very long time here, in the face of repeated demonstrations that Americans are quite well aware of how U.S. actions are portrayed abroad.
In just the case of this shooting, the New York Times (a nationally distributed newspaper) has covered the fallout extensively. You can find plenty about it on CNN. Or even (gasp) Fox News.
I believe Pjen’s frustration stems from the fact that many Americans are more prone to believe their major news sources than his news sources.
I was initially encouraged in reading this thread to see Pjen asking questions in what looked like a spirit of genuine inquiry. Sadly, this degenerated quickly.
Irony, thy name is Pjen. :rolleyes:
To address Pjen’s list of three possible explanations for the tragic event, I (pending further investigation) lean toward the idea of a “horrid accident”, in part possibly caused by overly quick reaction by troops who face ambush and suicide bombs on a frequent basis. I have difficulty believing that the Italians were entirely blameless or that the U.S. military handled the affair in a faultless manner.
As to the theory of deliberate “state terror”, I’ll leave that type of thinking to the sort of delusional paranoid who, on the other side of the fence, is probably speculating that the Italian journalist and her companions staged a deliberate provocation designed to embarass the U.S. and force the withdrawal of Italy’s troops from Iraq.
Problem is that this kind of “tragic accident” happens all the time, as reported by news outlets. The only difference is that in this case, the victims were westerners, not Irakis, and high profile ones at that.
The US do indemnize the victims of such “tragic accidents”. I can’t remember the exact amount paid for loss of life or limb, but it’s IMO a paltry sum. In exchange, the victims agree with not pursuing the issue.
These “tragic accidents” at roadblocks (or involving vehicles running in the general direction of an USarmy vehicle), at least according to the french press, would be rather commonplace (and I read about them before this particular incident, it’s not something that was unheard of before…by the way, it’s apparently even worse in Afghanistan, in particular regarding the ill-famed “private contractors”).
The fact that the US refuses to release any figure about the number of deaths related to “roadbloks tragic accidents”, nor about the number of people indemnized doesn’t do any good to the perception the general public (that would include me) has of the general behavior of the US troops, command and rules of engagement. You choose to hide what you know, why should I pay any attention to your official stance? How could I not suspect that your position isn’t defensible when you refuse to relase informations?
IOW, when I heard about this new, I just thought “OK…this time, that’s not a random Iraki nobody who was shot, but a high profile victim. It’s going to make a fuss”. IOW, I wasn’t at all surprised by the accident, only by the identity of the victims.
hey obviously don’t keep it secret, since apparently everybody knows about it. And yes, it was essentially publically acknowledged they had paid a ransom too for the release of the two young women taken hostages last year.
I understand that this road is very well known for being a hot spot and that many attacks and ambushes took place along it.
Also, members of an intelligence service driving in a war zone wouldn’t be expected to react like a random driver suddenly hearing a gunshot in a peaceful area.
I read yesterday that the Italians would have chosen not to appear as any kind of official convoy in order to avoid being attacked by Irakis insurgents.
Did anyone else listen to BBC news today? Maybe I’m the only one who listens to public radio. The Italian government has officially dissmissed Sgrena’s claim that someone deliberately tried to kill her, but they want the US to fully investigate and punish those responsible.
Perhaps this is old news, but this is why I like public radio, I can get news filtered by an entirely different government.
Then set checkpoints up so that cars can’t approach at speed, as should be SOP.
Secrecy - so as not to attract attention from bad guys. Seems pretty obvious. How do you think the US troops would have reacted to a car full of armed men approaching? Would you want a firefight between the Italians and the US? Are you suggesting that allies need an armed escort to protect them from US trrops?
Have you thought of all the advantages in doing things damn properly in the first place?
This isn’t either do it in a half-arsed way bound to lead to innocent deaths or not doing it at all.
Have you thought of the hearts and minds advantages of not shooting innocent people, your allies etc?
See - it’s a game anyone can play.
It’s “secrecy?” And that’s “pretty obvious” you add. And secrecy not from just anybody, but only from the “bad guys” – I can buy that if framed as a GUESS – but you have to admit, it’s still a pretty laconic statement you’ve responded with. Very open to interpertation. For example – Who are the “bad guys” you mention as the motivation for the secrecy? And since it’s “obvious” (to you) I’m certain you’ve already processed the information (known and unknown to us without keen insight) and produced a final result. — So, are the “bad guys” the Italians? The Americans? The terrorists? All three? Two of three? Someone else? Who? And the “secrecy” you mention, what’s the motivation for that? To hide the ransom money to ensure that it reaches the hands of the terrorists? To hide from other ransom hungry terrorists? To ensure safety? To save lives? All? Some? None? Why?
And then — you’vve stated it’s all “pretty obvious” ------- how? Forgive me but apparently I’m not as blessed as you appear to be –
The bad guys are obviously the insurgents. And if US troops are acting on a safety-first policy that permits them to kill on suspicion instead of setting up properly controlled points on a dangerous road then their commanders are also ‘bad guys’ for putting them in a position where they end up killing innocent people and no doubt being scarred for life.
And the ‘bad guys’ are also Bush and Blair for the troops being sent there on lies and false expectations, hideously under-trained and equipped for what they face in the first place.
Well, perhaps you should learn more then. See, I can do sarcasm too.
First tagos you seem quite more than willing to assume an intent to kill here. From whence did you retrieve that gem? And second, you must have missed the reports of car bombs. They’re using them now.
But the bad guys can’t be the Italian government who are in all likelihood funding terrorists operations by ransom money?? By what standards do you reach these disparate conclusions?
And ‘first rate’ sarcasm I might add –