You might want to read the first post of this thread. To summarize a few key points:
[ol]
[li]Germany was overwhelmingly Christian, so even if Hitler was not a Christian it’s unlikely we’d find anti-Christian sentiment in Hitler’s public speeches (Hitler almost certainly knew that pretending to be a Christian would help him garner support).[/li][li]As the staff report in question noted, “it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn’t fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church…He couldn’t beat the church in open warfare–so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease.”[/li][li]The best place to look for Hitler’s anti-Christian views, if he had any, would be to see what he said behind closed doors. And there we see some strong evidence (that the staff member was apparently unaware of) for Hitler not being a Christian. For example, we have Hitler claiming, “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light, and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.”[/li][/ol]
The evidence suggests that Hitler was probably not a Christian, at least in the latter years of his life.
Sorry, he was a Christian. Twice.born again too.
Let me say where I am with this thread.
I’m an atheist, but I have joined this thread with an open mind, not to beat the drum for “Hitler was teh Christian”. As a matter of fact, in previous debates I’ve come down on the side of saying hitler was an atheist (link).
But there’s no discussion here, just people repeatedly posting the same things and ignoring any refutations.
e.g. “Hitler claimed to be Christian in public, but was anti-christian in private”.
Aside in the inherent problems of piecing together what hitler said in unrecorded conversations, the claim is unbalanced. There are plenty of first-hand sources that claim hitler made religious statements in private:
Finally, the point about “evil people can’t be christian” is nonsense. Christianity is defined primarily in terms of belief, and the fact of the matter is that plenty of evil people profess belief in Jesus Christ (and that JC is God). It stretches credulity to absurd levels to assume that they are all lying.
Christianity, like all religions, can easily be bent towards evil, just as easily as it can be bent to incorporate modern, progressive viewpoints.
He may not have been later in his life.Then he may have still been. Is there some reason I should accept your guesses? A lot of people have made statement declaring their disappointment with the troubles the church has brought mankind. There are plenty of ex- altar boys who lost trust in the church.
He did not have to fight the church. The Vatican capitulated.
In this case those who deny Jesus’ existence are flying in the face of established facts. The historical documentation for Jesus is better than that of any other founder of any other ancient religion. Note also that not even the enemies of early Christianity denied Jesus’ existence. If you think the idea of Jesus existing is speculative, I suggest you consider at least a small introduction to the evidence (in addition to having a Ph.D. in the history and philosophy of religion, the author of the article frequently cites his sources). Even if one is not a Christian, the most rational thing to do is to accept that Jesus existed. Similarly, I am not a Muslim, but it is nonetheless rational for me to accept that Islam’s founder, Muhammad, existed. One doesn’t have to resort to crackpot historical theories to reject a religious belief.
How about all the evidence I referred to in the post you responded to? You barely addressed it.
Presumably this is in reference to Hitler calling Christianity one of the great scourges. From Hitler’s Table Talk we can see similar sentiments expressed elsewhere; such as Hitler saying that “There is something very unhealthy about Christianity” and even that “Pure Christianity…leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind” (p. 146). But which is more plausible: that these the words of a Christian man who dislikes bad things done in the name of Christianity, or the words of someone who is not Christian? Consider the other quotes from Hitler’s Table Talk I cited in the first post of this thread (all page numbers are from the third edition):
The evidence suggests that Hitler was not a Christian; if anything, he probably hated it. More Hitler quotes from the book:
“Science cannot lie, for it’s always striving, according to the momentary state of knowledge, to deduce what is true. When it makes a mistake, it does so in good faith. It’s Christianity that’s the liar.” p. 61
“[T]he Christian religion is the enemy of beauty.” p. 325
“I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors–but to devote myself deliberately to error, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie.” p. 343
“Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar.” p. 343
Hitler was very likely not a Christian here. Notably, the evidence also suggests that Hitler was not an atheist; the records contained in Hitler’s Table Talk suggest that Hitler believed in God.
Back to the subject. Hitler was a Christian. If you maintain he forfeited it because of his actions, who else lost their right to claim they are Christians? Is Jimmy Swaggert allowed to claim he is a Christian? Who decides and how do they decide? Is a priest who buggers an altar boy a Christian? If the pope covered it up, does he lose the right to claim he is a Christian? Bush started two wars . He decided it was a good idea. But many innocent people died. Did he forfeit his Christanity?
Again, you don’t seem to have addressed the strong evidence that Hitler was not a Christian. See for example post #86 and post #80.
Where did Hitler claim he was a Christian ?
A few things: (1) You seem to be implying that what Hitler said in regards to Christianity was unrecorded (at least in regards to the evidence that Hitler was not a Christian). If so, I should point out that Hitler’s Table Talk does indeed consist of recordings of what Hitler said (handwritten recordings, but recordings nonetheless). (2) What is the source of your quote? Which book/website? When was it written? (3) The quote you cited doesn’t actually imply that Hitler was a Christian. I don’t dispute that Hitler believed in God and held Jesus in some admiration. Yet Hitler not being a Christian is consistent with believing that one should “be considerate of your fellow man” and that “each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers.” Since Hitler believed in God, I have little doubt that Hitler made religious statements in private; some of these are also in Hitler’s Table Talk that suggest Hitler was not an atheist. But Hitler making religious statements isn’t necessarily the same thing as Hitler making statements confirming he’s a Christian. Do you have any firsthand sources of the latter sort?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_evangelist_scandals#Ted_Haggard.2C_2006 Here is a list of religious leaders who got caught. Are they Christian.
Hitler was raised Christian and quoted the bible as a justification of his politics. Who actually has to declare they are Christian in public? That would surely cut down on the number of Christians we have
Has anyone in this thread had to declare their Christianity in public?
You guys keep setting up phony barriers. Use bible quotations in public . Tie your actions to the bible. You are a Christian.
http://www.striveguide.com/why-did-hitler-say-he-was-doing-the-work-of-jesus-while-the-killing-of-jews/ As a matter of fact he did. If that is your standard, case closed.
If that cite is the best you can do, I’m afraid you’ve failed to convince me. Have you read that anonymous grammatical abortion ?
And you haven’t responded to the quote of Hitler’s I provided where he says he has no real connection to the church.
You have no intention of being swayed. I have answered every little objection ,yet you persist. It is not because I have not answered every question offered. It is because those in this thread are deeply entrenched and will shut their eyes. Hitlers own words spoken in public will not do. What would it take? The answer is nothing will do it.
I responded with a quote in which he says he is a Christian. That is the ultimate answer.
Is connection to the church the same as being a Christian? That was not good enough a few posts ago. He did not wage war to create wealth for the church. Neither did Bush. They compartmentalize those beliefs. That does not mean by some peoples standards he is not a Christian. Apparently we can forgive our transgressions and still earn a Xian merit badge.
Perhaps I should again point out that you don’t seem to have addressed some strong evidence that Hitler was not a Christian. See for example post #86 and post #80.
But there’s a good reason for this that you haven’t addressed. Germany was overwhelmingly Christian, so if Hitler had anti-Christian sentiments it’s unlikely we would find them in public; pretending to be a Christian would help him garner support and Hitler almost certainly knew this. As the staff report in question noted, “it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn’t fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church…He couldn’t beat the church in open warfare–so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease.” Considering all the evidence that Hitler was not a Christian (that you have yet to address) and that Hitler was not above lying to the public when it suited his interests (and it would certainly suit his interests here), this explanation looks likely. How else do you make sense of the evidence? How else do you explain what Hitler said about Christianity behind closed doors as I quoted earlier, particularly since that is the very place we would expect to find such strong evidence for Hitler not being a Christian if such evidence exists?
Well, if Hitler’s Table Talk had the opposite evidence, that would do it for me. Consider for example that I wish Hitler wasn’t a theist (since I am a theist) but that is what the evidence suggests so I accept it.
Yes, I’m just saying that private conversations are harder to prove. Throw out that point if you wish; my main point is that while some first-hand sources claim Hitler was anti-christian in private, some claim he was pro-christian.
The data doesn’t lead an objective person to make either conclusion.
From this book, written by the former general himself. The quote I linked is from Ch. 23. I’m not sure of the original published date.
He mentioned belief in God, belief in Christ and that we should follow Christ’s teachings in the same line. It certainly does imply that he was christian.
If it’s just a general statement of brotherhood, why use those words? I can express the same sentiment without invoking God or Jesus.
Ok, so the strong evidence.
From post #86 we have a bunch of quotes from Hitler’s Table Talk.
The problem is that the validity of this source has been questioned by some (example). Pretty much every “Hitler was an atheist!” site relies almost entirely on Table Talk, but there’s reason to doubt the objectivity of several of the people involved in the book and its translations such as François Genoud, Martin Bormann.
For example, one of the quotes you listed apparently was not in the original german text, and somehow appeared in the french translation (then subsequently the english translation from the french): “Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity”.
From post #80 we have the point that Hitler killed christians.
All I can find is the killings of Church leaders and/or people that openly disagreed with the Nazis. The latter group were obviously killed for openly disagreeing, not their faith.
In the former case it may have been about removing the existing church framework to replace it with his own: The German Reich Church.
Again from Hitler – Memoirs of a Confidant we have “…the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man” – Adolf Hitler.
That’s crap, I asked the same damn thing that the article did. Hitler was a politician who broke a lot of promises; taking all his face value is far different from ignoring them.
Hitler was raised a Christian, read the bible and quoted scripture. Did that make him a Christian during his salad days when he was attempting to conquer the world? Those are certainly not Christian actions
Bush was a born again. He started 2 wars . Is he still a Christian?
You want Christians, look to war protesters, pacifists, Conscientious objectors and their ilk. Obama blew his status in Afghanistan.
In my opinion, actions decide who is a Christian. Hitler, Bush and Obama don’t qualify.
Hitler’s Table Talk is a disputed source that has already shown to be faulty, to be manipulated by at least one and possibly two people with their own agendas. Relying on it for Hitler’s beliefs is suspect.
Hitler appears to have been a religious believer in God. Does that make him a Christian? Depends upon how he defined “God” and “Christian”.
Personally, I think too many people are trying to make too much out of one answer or the other. So what if he was a Christian, he was apparently bad at it. So what if he wasn’t a Christian, he still was a sick bastard. People are too busy trying to lade Hitler’s evilness on some other association to care about the facts.
The facts are murky and irrelevant.
Please make up your mind.