Not in GQ, it’s not.
OK, one more time…
In order to grow facial hair you need a certain amount of testosterone, and the ability to use it. Eunuchs (assuming they’re “cut” prior to puberty) don’t have facial hair because, essentially, they don’t produce testosterone (they produce a minute amount in their adrenal glands, but not enough to produce facial hair). Intact men grow beards because they do produce gobs of testosterone. Some women, even, grow facial hair between scanty to bearded lady because their bodies either produce too much testosterone (produced in their adrenals and, yes, some in the ovaries, too - just not as much as men. Usually) or their bodies are unusually sensitive to it. Got that?
Now, the reason the “XY female” is a girl and not a boy is because her body does not respond to testosterone at all. Under command of her Y her little fetal body starts pumping out testosterone and such right on schedule several weeks after conception, but, due to a mutation, her cells can’t use testosterone at all. So the male sexual organs completely fail to develop. (The internal female organs also fail to develop, there being no signal for them to do so, although externally an XY girl looks quite female). She NEVER develops male secondary sexual characteristics, or even some normal female ones like pubic and armpit hair. As part of this whole shebang, her facial hair folicles, just like the rest of her body, are completely insensitive to testosterone and therefore never progress beyond infant peach-fuzz. She’s also sterile. Failure to menstruate is what sends many of them to the doctor to be diagnosed as XY. (She doesn’t menstruate because she has no uterus or ovaries)
No, XY females do NOT have facial hair. No more than a eunuch castrated prior to puberty ever has facial hair.
It’s also ironic that the international Olympic committee is so hostile towards them - they are the one group of athletes who CAN’T cheat with anabolic steroids. You can pump all the male hormones or anabolics into these gals you want, it won’t make a bit of difference. They won’t build extra muscle, get acne, drop their voices, or grow beards. Or that missing pubic and armpit hair. As a result, they are at a severe disadvantage in any area of athletics where steroid use is prevelant.
Uh… Plenty of XX women have facial hair.
Hey, Broomstick, I’m sure you won’t mind if I correct your ‘correction’ (two posts up), but according to
this article (and the book I cited earlier in this thread, as well), some XY females are in fact detected as such precisely because of the appearance of facial hair (and lack of menstruation) at the onset of puberty.
The specific condition I’m referring to is called ‘5-Alpha-Reductase Insensitivity’, which essentially means that the body is lacking the ability to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the hormone responsible for prenatal development of male genitalia and for balding. Thus, these ‘female-appearing XYs’ begin to virilize at puberty: facial hair, deepening voice, etc.
Why? because their produce testosterone and their bodies can respond to testosterone, but they can’t make DHT, which plays such a critical role in pre-natal development. There are other cites available, too, if you want to do further reading about this. Try a search on “alpha insensitivity” or something like that. 
And Shoshana, I think we all are aware that many women (especially, I might add, at the onset of menopause) have facial hair. Not so many begin to grow so much at the onset of puberty that they go to see an endocrinologist or go in for phenotyping.
Yes, I’m going to quibble a little.
Pablito, what you’re talking about THERE is “male pseudoherphroditism”. In fact, some of them are indentified as male as birth (although slightly peculiar males) and after puberty frequently are easily identified as male. “XY female” usually refers to the testosterone insensitive, sometimes called “androgen insensitivity” (being insensitive to ALL of the androgens). Note testosterone insensitive, not “'5-Alpha-Reductase insensitivity” These are two different (although related) phenomena. Those with male pseudoherphroditism (MPH) are often capable of fathering children. XY females can’t. MPH past puberty often identify as men and take on male roles in their society. XY females identify as women (although sterile) and take on female roles in their society. Until chromosomes were discovered there was no way to know they were “supposed to be men”. MPH’s, on the other, fall clearly into what we now call “intersex” or ambiguous sex.
MPH’s are about as female as folks with Klinefelter’s syndrome (chromosones XXY, or even variants like XXXY or XXXXY). That is to say, they’re anamolous males in body. XY females, despite their “normal” chromosomes, are clearly female in bodily appearance.
As an aside, Jared Diamond in a couple of his essays and books has mentioned a New Guinea tribe with the highest rate of male pseudoherphroditism in the world. The tribe’s name for the disorder translates into something like "Turns into man
The tribe can usually spot these kids at birth, unlike XY females, which can’t be distinguished from XX females without genotyping or some sort of internal exam. And true XY females often appear “super-feminine” in lack of body hair. ". Again, my point is that MPH can be diagnosed with stone age medical technology. Androgen insensitivity can’t be.
Am I the only heterosexual guy here who thinks Jaime Lee Curtis is NOT hot? When I saw True Lies I had to close my eyes when she did her dance. I was very interested in this discussion because it would explain so much. She IS butch. I just don’t understand why so many people think she looks so good.
Personally I wouldn’t be suprised one way or the other. There are a lot of “mannish” women who are 100% female. But I have never seen so much sexual interest as one finds in this mannish woman.
prisoner, if you think Curtis is ‘mannish’, you certainly have not encountered enough truly masculinized women. As a physician, I’ve encountered hundreds, and while I might consider JLC just a tad “hoydenish”, mannish sure doesn’t cut it for me as a descriptor for her.
And JLC does have facial hair. At least a hair lip.
So, the Doper whose expertise is in gender is…ShagNasty?
On a serious note-
For more information I recommend the Intersex Society of North America ISNA.Org
I had other meaningfull stuff to say and experiences to share, but my brain is on the fritz today.
One piece of evidence that’s missing here that I think could shed a least a little light on the scene.
I know they said her kids are adopted. But think, is she married? Boyfriend? Girlfriend?
I don’t know the answer. I can’t recall ever having seen her linked to any other stars, or seen her in some magazine on someone’s arm.
Does she date? Is she married? You’d think if she was a HE, then either s/he wouldn’t date, or at some point someone would have gotten close enough to find out. Might her dating history be telling one way or the other?
Not to say that there aren’t people out there who would love someone with this condition. They can (and deserve to be) loved just like anyone else. HOWEVER, the chance that s/he’d get one of those people on the first try is fairly slim.
In this condition, you’d either have to submit to an asexual lifestyle, or else take some chances and hope to find someone who’d be comfortable with the situation. Or the third possibility, she’s married or dates normally, and this is all bullshit.
I wonder which one it is? Anybody have the energy to do the search?
Metalhead-
You’ve got a fault premise in there. If Jamie were androgen insensitive, her genitals would be appear female. If she had been born with ambigous genitalia, surgery would have been performed in infancy (Many intersexed adults are understandably furious about this practice. See the above link.) An aesthetically pleasing vagina capable of some sexual function is far less complicated than a penis. For decades that was what guided surgery. Curtis is 43. In 1950, ‘they’ll grow up identifying as female if we just construct vaginas’ was the prevailing(and now disproven) opinion. Even if the rumors were true, odds are Curtis would have a vagina.
Further, the “shemale” a woman with large breasts, hips, feminine body shape, smooth skin, and a large and fully functional penis and testes exists only in fantasy and the world of porn. No actual condition causes this combination.
//\etalhea|), according to E! (warning - annoying popup), she’s been married to Christopher Guest (of SNL, Spinal Tap, The Princess Bride, and Best in Show fame, among other things) for over 18 years. (I love Christopher Guest - I knew these credits off the top of my head).
I don’t completely disagree with you, but a couple of points:
On your first comment, true, she could, and most probably does (even if this is true) appear externally female. However, in the course of a “normal” sexual relationship a few things would have to become evident over time. Namely, difficulty with lubrication would become pretty obvious sooner or later, and a close-up examination of the genitals would probably take place sooner or later. I know I look at my GF’s genitals up-close every chance I get.
Someone in this condition would have some tell-tale signs. Not signs visible in her movies, nor in most pictures. Not signs visible at all maybe, but signs that would come out in the course of a sexual relationship. I’m not saying the guy would go “Hey, that’s not a real vagina!!”. But I think he might ask questions, especially after the constant no-lubrication thing.
I just think this is one more piece of the puzzle.
As far as your second point, I’m well aware that the “she-male” is an artificially created situation, that is to say not NATURALLY occuring.
However, there are some very convincing results of plastic surgery and hormone therapy. These I have seen, these exist. These folks are not naturally that way, but they are real.
But I’m not in any way suggesting she’s one of them.
Qadgop, you’ve got to stop doing that.
You drop a line like “masculinized women” and “I’ve seen hundreds” and you just leave us hanging.
DETAILS! We want DETAILS!
Grant us some insight from your experience, please.
My biology teacher back in 10th grade mentioned Jamie Lee Curtis as an example of someone who is genetically XY but phenotypically a woman in every respect except the ability to reproduce. I was recently in a conversation and mentioned it and then felt the need to look it up and see if it was true. Found no evidence, and find that I don’t really care except to say that she’s incredibly hot.
Lesson in terminology: Human hermaphrodites are incredibly rare as the person is essentially a fraternal twin of themselves, having full male and female anatomy. Many people, however, are intersex, where they have XY chromosomes and vary in their degree of development of sex characteristics and reproductive ability. They also vary in terms of gender identity which is why having parents “decide” what sex their intersex infant should be has become controversial.
That is all.
Hermaphroditic zombie?
I once had a girlfriend who considered Jamie Lee Curtis the height of femininity. That should have been a red flag of how our relationship was going to proceed, because I’ve always thought her homely and plain. Dunno if I would say “mannish” though.
Please note this thread is 12 years old.
A friend of mine told me she went to high school with Jamie Lee Curtis. And from brief gym class locker room glances, she said Curtis certainly appeared to be a female. But to be completely honest, in the 60s & 70s, most women’s high school/jr high school locker rooms weren’t equipped for gene/dna analysis or testing of hormone levels.
I never gave it a thought but now that I look at her, she does have short hair. What other possible explanation could there be?
>‘o’<