Religious discussions always seem to turn into Great Debates. I’m moving this to Great Debates.
Off to Great Debates.
DrMatrix - GQ Moderator
Walloon, yes, Jesus said “in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit”. note the word “name” is singular. also note that the apostles, who of all people knew what Jesus was saying, went out and baptized in the name of Jesus (acts 2:38 and other verses i can’t remember). which implies that either peter was in direct disobedience or that Jesus is the father’s name and the son’s name and the holy spirit’s name.
Nothing in your last post supports your contention that “the doctrine of the trinity (which, as has been said already, is not is the Bible).” The quote from Matthew that I gave, on the other hand, is a strong indicator that the concept of a trinity existed in the first century A.D. — including the fact that the word name is singular.
Sure. I was a Mormon. A brainwashed Mormon, to be exact =)
I can tell you lots about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, as well as spout of an ordered list of every book in the Bible, and maybe even tell you a good deal about the Bible itself. But thats all stuff I learned as a kid ya’ know?
My learning is now self-inspired…!
Several things could be added to this debate, like
Matthew 19:16: Jesus said:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Also Jesus called Himself the Son of Man.
I don’t believe Jesus was God, a part of God or God’s son, yes,
We are all God’s children and God is within us all.
Luke 17:20: Jesus said:
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
I think Jesus was a Master Teacher of God’s love for us. It was Paul that did the most to proclaim Jesus as God.
All the debate on this subject can be quickly understood by just doing as Jesus asks us to do. Everything will become clear and precise with the practice of loving, caring and compassion for others, all others, not just our friends.
Love
lekatt I am tending towards your position to be honest. It seems to me that its just a poor interpretation of scripture.
“Son of man” is considered by most scholars to be an idiom in Aramaic for “I”. Do you have any legitimate training in biblical languages?
Here we go, the old “master teacher” nonsense. Whether one believes Jesus was God or not, mere teachers don’t say something like “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man gets to the Father but through me.” Like C.S. Lewis, I think one has to assume he was either God himself or a lunatic.
So humans should do no more thinking, just lovin’? Better close the Board down then.
UnuMondo
I just made them up. But the “This Time, It’s Personal” comes from one of the Jaws sequals, I believe. Hijack over.
I agree that Jesus was not a mere teacher, but where do you get that he is claiming to be God there? When he said “no man gets to the Father but through me,” he clearly differentiated between himself and the father. In fact, Hebrews 12:24 is even more explicit, calling him “the mediator of the new covenant.” A mediator is, simply-defined, a go-between. For whom does Jesus act as the mediator? 1 Timothy 2:5 states: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus.”
Also, I will again refer to John 5:30, which reads in part, “I do not seek my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me."
I went through 17 years of Catholic school, from Kindergarden to College.
Nuns and priests ultimately said the “Blessed Trinity” was just a mystery that had to be accepted.
It’s a dogma. Like the Infallibility of the Pope when he speaks formally, “ex-Cathedra”, on Faith or Morals .
It’s really hard to believe all those dogmas. Ultimately, I couldn’t. But obviously hundreds of millions of Catholics do.
My question was always: so Who do I pray to? do I just pray to “God”, and presumably the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost all hear me? Or can I specify the recipient, like when the nuns used to exhort us to “pray to Jesus” and if we did, did the Other Two hear also? All my Jewish friends - monotheists - used to be quite perplexed by how we Catholics could address our prayers to one specific Person within God, but not the Other Two.
A couple of books you might want to read are When Jesus Became God by Richard Rubenstein and The Search For The Christian Doctrine of God by R.P.C. Hanson. Both deal extensively with the Arian controversy that culminated with the Nicaean Council of 325 whereby the bishops were called under the Emperor Constantine to vote on the matter of Jesus’ nature.
The matter wasn’t really about his divinity, as both Arius and Alexander believed he was of divine origin, but rather about his being either of the same substance as the father or created by the father. The big debate was over the word homoousios, which was inserted into the Nicene Creed, meaning of the same substance or consubstantiation with the father.
Arius and his followers (called Arians) believed that Jesus was a separate being from The Father and had been created by Him. They emphasized Jesus’ humanity and God’s transcendent “otherness.” By subordinating the Son to the Father, they held Christ as a ”knowable, usable model of human moral development and God The Father as an unknowable, utterly single First Cause.” (from Richard Rubenstein).
Bishop Alexander insisted Arius recant these beliefs and stop teaching them, which he refused to do. Alexander excommunicated Arius in 318, but he continued to teach his interpretation of Christ’s nature. Constantine was asked to get involved after his religious advisor, Ossius of Cordova, failed to mediate the dispute. He wrote a letter to each stating he wished for them to put aside their “inconsequential” differences and angered both of them with his lack of understanding of how very central the nature of Christ was to each man’s doctrine. Thus, the Council was called to decide the matter.
Arius and his followers were determined heretical and the Trinity was accepted as official Doctrine. Unitarian Christians would likely be termed Arians and are thus considered heretics.
I’m reminded of the story – I’ll probably screw it up – of St. Augustine of Hippo walking along the beach, trying to comprehend the trinitarian nature of God. He comes upon a young boy scooping water out of the sea and pouring into a hole he’d dug. Augustine asks him what he’s doing, and the boy says that he is pouring the sea into his hole in the sand. Augustine points out that it’s impossible for that small hole to contain the sea, and boy looks at him and says ‘Just as it is impossible for your human mind to understand the Trinity.’
That’s my paraphrase and I probably have the details wrong.
One of the subtlest clues in the NT that Jesus actually claimed equality with God is in Mark 14:61-63:
On the surface, it looks like Jesus is simply admitting that he is the Messiah (Christ), Son of God. But he doesn’t just say “Yes,” he specifically says, “I am,” which that audience would have recognized as the Name God gave for himself to Moses. I always thought that was pretty cool and often overlooked.
Jesus uses the phrase “I am” 54 times in the Gospel of John. Most notably:
John 8:58 “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Thanks, Calliope. I was trying to remember the title When Jesus Became God* so that I could recommend it, but I couldn’t think of it for anything.
Skammer: yes, that’s interesting. But did you notice that he said he would be sitting at the right hand of power? (Psalms 110:1 and several other scriptures also consistently speak of Christ as sitting at the right hand of God.)
In the face of all other evidence, his use of the phrase “I am” is not convincing.
Also, Jesus did not claim equality with God. To the contrary, in John 14:28 he says explicitly, “The Father is greater than I.”
That’s true, Walloon, and I think the quotes from John are equally valid. However, my New Testament professor in college liked to dismiss any theology found exclusively in John because it was written later and apparently separately from the synoptic gospels. Mark, assumed to be the earliest canonical gospel, held a lot more weight with him…
Skammer: Either the book of John is in the Biblical canon or it isn’t. Either John was inspired or he wasn’t. If you accept that he was inspired, then you also have to accept what he wrote, according to 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
Actually, it’s a pretty weak indicator, seeing as this formula only appears here in the NT. There are plenty of other “threes” in the NT - it seems to have been a popular habit to link concepts this way.
On the contrary, the fact that the nature of Jesus was debated throughout the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries is a strong indicator that there was not a concept of the Trinity in the 1st century, at least not one that was universally accepted.
… or that Jesus didn’t actually say any such thing. Many scholars think that John was the last Gospel written, and much of the “quotes” from Jesus were made up by the author. Note that there is nothing like this in the other three Gospels.
Also, there are many Christian sects that don’t subscribe to the doctrine that “Jesus was wholly God”: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Quakers, for instance.
sceptic_ev: The “all or nothing” approach with respect to Scripture becomes hard to maintain once you start looking at the history of the NT. For 300 years after the death of Jesus there was little agreement about what should be considered Scripture. Timothy, for instance, was not accepted by many early Christians. Today it is believed to be pseudonymus: not written by Paul, but by someone writing in his name. How do you decide that Timothy should be considered “inspired”? How do you know that “Scripture” in Timothy refers to John (and not, for instance, the OT only)? What do you mean by “inspired”, anyway? Does it have to mean “every word is literally true”? If so, how do you reconcile the obvious contradictions between the Gospels (e.g., what happened at the tomb on Easter morning)?
sceptic_ev, personally, I do consider John (and the rest of the NT) to be inspired, and the quotes in John would be enough to convince me. However, you can’t have a scholarly debate about what Jesus or his followers claimed by simply saying it’s true because it’s in the Bible.
In my professor’s case, he pointed out (correctly) that John was written decades after the other gospels. By that time, there had been plenty of time for the belief to develop that Jesus=God. But is that what Jesus and his first followers believed? To do that, you have to look at earlier sources, and Mark is the earliest canonical Gospel.
You totally misunderstood my post.
Jesus called Himself the Son of Man, that’s pretty easy to understand, no special knowledge of Aramaic needed.
Didn’t say Jesus was a mere teacher. I said He was a Master Teacher. There are never more than two Master Teachers on the planet at one time. Most of the time only One. They can heal, and perform other seeming impossible feats. Below is a quote from one of them.
“There is only one religion; the religion of love.
There is only one language; the language of the heart.
There is only one race; the race of humanity.”
Sai Baba
These Masters teach the love of all people, they teach the message of God, what God is, and what He stands for. Usually we children twist the words around and build religions out of them for our own selfish purposes. The Masters teach no religion, only Love with a capital “L.”
Now, since they know they live within God, and God lives within them, they usually say so. I have no argument with “I am the way,” the “Way” lies within us all. Because we do not seek the “Way” where it lies, most of us live in darkness.
On your last statement. God gave us the ability to think, use logic, and also the ability to feel, love, and care for others. We would do well to use all of these abilities in our daily lives.
So few people really know what spiritual love is, how it is used, learned, and applied to our lives.
So, I say again, follow the teachings of Jesus and learn about love, you will never regret it.
Love