Jesus is God?

Great Debates
1

So for the second time today, i’ve seen this bumper sticker on someones car that says, ‘Jesus is God’.

Now I’m not part of any religion right now, but I went to a christian school for 6 years when I was a kid. I don’t know where this came from, but i’ve never heard Jesus being referred to as God. I mean, where in the bible does it even mention that Jesus is God.

I think that even if you take everything out of context in the bible, there is no way you could say Jesus is God. Maybe I was absent that day.

:dubious:

2

Well, macabresoul, for the most part it’s implicit in the recognition of Jesus as kyrios – “Lord,” an epithet that a Jew would consider proper only as addressed to God Himself, in John’s identification of Jesus as logos theoi – the active Word of God creating and recreating the world – and in Jesus Himself’s use of ego eimi – the long-form construction of “I am” which was the answer God gave Moses and hence improper for a Greek-speaking Jew to use in any other context. But there are a few Biblical passages that address the identity of Jesus with God (or, technically, with one of the three Persons of the Godhead):

3

I’m curious, Polycarp. I’m wondering what the Hebrew origin of the root of the word that you are translating as “Lord” is. If it is the Hebrew root aleph-daled-nun, then you may be mistaken. That root (often translated as “Master”) is used in the Hebrew Bible to refer both to God and to earthly masters (see Genesis 32:5 and 33:8). I’m curious to know what the Greek term used in the Sept. is for “Master” (or Lord) in those verses. If it is kyrios, then that would indicate that Jesus’ contemporaries thought of him as a “master” (i.e., a learned scholar, someone to be respected), but not necessarily as Divine.

Zev Steinhardt

4

To add to what Polycarp said, I think the Holy Trinity concept places Jesus as God as well. Many will say that Jesus is the earthly emodiment of God. Whether that’s true, I don’t really know.

5

If you went to Christian school for 6 years than the concept of the Trinity should not be totally foreign to you. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Ring any bells at all? It refers to all three being the same Person.

6

AMPLIFIED.

John 1
1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

John 8
58 Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

and what Poly said :smiley:

John 20
28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!
29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and trusted and relied on Me.
Titus 2
13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

7

The trinity is not in the Bible. Macabre was asking specifically for a Biblical quote, not a traditional extropolation.

I think the “Logos” passage from John is pretty much the most explicit assertion for Christ’s divinity in the NT. Titus is pretty straight on too.

8

{Opinion}

There is an old story from India about the God, Brahma, who was all alone. Nothing existed but Brahma, and he was completely bored. Brahma decided to play a game, but there was no one to play the game with. So he created a beautiful goddess, Maya, just for the purpose of having fun. Once Maya existed and Brahma told her the purpose of her existence, she said, “Okay, let’s play the most wonderful game, but you have to do what I tell you to do.” Brahma agreed, and following Maya’s instructions, he created the whole universe. Brahma created the sun and the stars, the moon and the planets. Then he created life on earth: the animals, the oceans, the atmosphere, everything.

Maya said, “How beautiful is this world of illusion you created. Now I want you to create a kind of animal that is so intelligent and aware that it can appreciate your creation.” Finally Brahma created humans, and after he finished the creation, he asked Maya when the game was going to start.

“We will start right now,” she said. She took Brahma and cut him into thousands of teeny,tiny, pieces. She put a piece inside every human and said, “Now the game begins! I am going to make you forget what you are, and you are going to try to find yourself!” Maya created the dream, and still, even today, Brahma is trying to remember who he is. Brahma is there inside you, and Maya is stopping you from remembering what you are.

It is my opinion that trying to remember who/what you are is what Jesus referred to as “awakening” and that god is everywhere and especially inside all of us. There is no need to look no further than ourselves. That upon awakening, one reclaims one’s divinity. Therefore Jesus is God just as you and I are as well.

9

I meant 7th Day Adventists school for 6 years, whoops. But no, I was never taught about the Trinity.
I never thought, nor have I heard, that Jesus was divine. Are there certain religions that hold Jesus as god and others that just refer to him as nothing more then the son of God?

10

With all due respect, macabresoul, that’s a pretty big thing to have missed. While Jesus as one aspect of the Lord God Almighty is not by any means universally believed, it’s… well, it’s a pretty famous idea, and the basis of Christianity.

It certainly is a central tenet of the Seventh-Day Adventists:

From the Adventist Church Official Website.

  • Rick
11

Jesus never says anywhere in the Bible that people should worship or pray to him.

He says that people should worship & pray to God.

Yet most Christians do this nonetheless.
I had a related argument recently on the subject of whether or not conversion to Christianity was necessary to get into heaven. My opponent (like many members of Evangelical denominations) claimed that it was and that good works while on earth counted for nothing, if one did not believe that “Jesus is Lord”.

Here’s what I posted back to him (I think it bears repeating in the context of this debate):
In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the Samaritan didn’t convert and no one ever suggested that he should. He was held up as a moral exemplar. But, according to your religion he would still go to hell if he didn’t convert???

Jesus told the partable in response to the question: “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” Luke 10:25

Jesus said that correct answer to this question was:

“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

He was then asked to clarify who one should consider to be their neighbor. So he told the parable. He used for his example a Samaritan (because as was clear to his audience) they were enemies of the Jews at that time.

He then ends the parable and further clarifies the answer to the mans original question (i.e. What must I do to inherit eternal life?) by saying: Go and do likewise. Luke 10:37

So, the Samaritan stays a Samaritan, and does not convert, yet he (and EVERYONE who live their lives in such a selfless manner) according to Jesus will inherit eternal life regardless of religious affiliation. A careful reading of this passage yields no alternative explanation.

Jesus did not say convert & then act like this Samaritan man. Furthermore the man asking the question who Jesus tells to go and do likewise was himself a Jewish scholar. We do not know that he converted either.

The man asked 2 questions:

  1. what must I do to inherit eternal life?
    AND a follow-up 2)who is my neighbor

Jesus final response go and do likewise does not answer the second question. It is the final answer to the first question: what must I do to inherit eternal life? http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+10:25&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

Furthermore, Jesus tells him to go, he doesn’t say, “Oh wait, one more thing you have to do, accept me as your personal Lord & Savior too.”

Its a direct question. And, a direct answer. The man quotes scripture. Jesus tells him he is correct & then provides a parable to give an example of someone living their life in accordance to such precepts.

This idea that the only way to heaven is through Jesus is nonsense. Jesus answered that question fully
and directly in Luke.

You misread statements like:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No ne comes to the Father except through me.

Some claim that the phase through me should be interpretted as through my teachings, by way of the path I have preached to you, or according to my example.

Others claim that Jesus never said these things at all - that they are later insertions into the text - no doubt to get people to convert to their Church rather than follow some other faith.

But, however YOU might like to interpret them. The parable above was a direct response to a direct question, its context is crystal clear.

You Christians should read your Bibles in context once in a while rather than just pulling out quotes out of context. You pervert the essential techings of your religion through your ignorance and then spread your perverted religion, which you call Christianity, to others. You dont understand the basic tenets of your own Faith.

12

Thanks, jersey! Plus Colossians 2:8-9

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

13

Loved the story Artemius. Thanks. Well told too. :slight_smile:

The idea of the universe as a cosmic hide-and-seek game I find infinitely preferable to Christian imageries of God vs. Satan doing battle.

I liked your answer to the question too:
“Therefore Jesus is God just as you and I are as well.”

Makes me wonder why even though it says in the Bible that we are all children of god that Jesus is always said to God’s only Son. But, then of course he is often said to be God too.

Also, it makes me wonder, if there have ever been (or currently are) any Christian sects that teach this concept (so common in the East) that “I am God” That the divine is in all things and all people and need only be discovered/realized.

14

Zev, I was addressing the usage in New Testament Greek, and the cultural usage I’ve been given to understand was customary at that time and place – usages like saying “Heaven” as an euphemism for saying "God. I’m aware that ADN and even JH were elements of names and had secular usages as well as reference to God. Question: would the form adonai, which I gather translates as “my Lord,” ever be used in addressing a royal, noble, or governing human person?

In any case, I have no cite but memory of years-ago studies informs me that a devout Diaspora Jew speaking Greek would avoid kyrios and ego eimi out of respect for the Divine Name and Titles. Perhaps Diogenes or another person with more recent and in-depth background on koine and First Century culture might pin this down as accurate or not?

15

I think the concept of the Trinity is just nonsense.

I don’t think Jesus mentions the word.

Read somewhere that the mystical notion of 3-in-1, 1-in-3 can actually be traced to the worship of Apollo and other Roman deities.

Have also read that its origin is Egyptian or some other pagan religion of the time and was originally the concept of the Holy Family or first family - i.e. Father god, Mother goddess, and their Son another god that comes from the union of the two.

But, Christianity was derived from a monotheistic religion with no goddess figure (although it may argued that the Catholic church later brought the goddess imagery back to the religion through the Holy Mother Mary). But to the early church, adding Jesus, gives two parishoners two figures to worship - and 2 is an incovenient number. Three is better - a mystical number in many faiths. So, they made the two into a Trinity patterned after other popular religions of the day & region. Many people who were converted to Christianity would have already been familiar with the concept & 3-in-1 imagery at local Roman temples.

Anyone else heard anything on this theory of the origin of the Trinity in Christian thought?

16

While the word “trinity” is never mentioned in the Bible, that does not mean that it does not exist. It is spoken of implicitly many times in the Bible:
http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

"While there is no explicit statement in the Old Testament affirming the Triunity, we can confidently say that the Old Testament not only allows for the Triunity, but also implies that God is a triune Being in a number of ways:

(1) The name Elohim, translated God, is the plural form of El. While this is what is called a plural of plenitude pointing to the power and majesty of God, it certainly allows for the New Testament revelation of the Triunity of God.

(2) There are many instances where God uses the plural pronoun to describe Himself (see Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8).

(3) In the creation account, both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are seen in the work of creation. It is stated that God created heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1), but that it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the earth to infuse it with life in the sense of protecting and participating in the work of creation (Gen. 1:2).

(4) Writing about the Messiah, Isaiah reveals Him to be equal with God, calling Him the “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father” (Isa. 9:6).

(5) Several passages reveal a distinction of Persons within the Godhead.

In Psalm 110:1, David demonstrates there is a distinction of Persons between “LORD,” the one speaking, and the one addressed called by David, “my Lord.” David was indicating the Messiah was no ordinary king, but his own Lord, Adoni (my Lord), one who was God Himself. So God the first Person addresses God the second Person. This is precisely Peter’s point when He quotes this Psalm to show the resurrection of the Messiah was anticipated in the Old Testament.
The Redeemer (who must be divine, Isa. 7:14; 9:6) is distinguished from the Lord (Isa. 59:20).
The Lord is distinguished from the Lord in Hosea 1:6-7. The one speaking here is Yahweh, the Lord, yet, note the statement in verse 7, “I will have compassion … and deliver them by the Lord their God.”
The Spirit is distinguished from the Lord in a number of passages (Isa. 48:16; 59:21; 63:9-10).
(6) In the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, God made it clear that the One who would be born of the virgin would also be Immanuel, God with us.

(7) Two other passages which imply the Trinity are Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1. In Isaiah 48:16 all three Persons are mentioned and yet seen as distinct from each other. See also Gen. 22:15-16."

17

Zenmaster:

If your interpretation is correct, what do you make of the passage in which Christ asks Peter who people are saying the Messiah is? Peter replies that there are many different beliefs; some say John the Baptist; some, Jeremiah; some, Elijah.

Christ then asks Peter what he, Peter, believes. Peter’s response is what causes Jesus to praise Peter’s faith and proclaim that Peter is the rock upon which he, Christ, will build his Church, and the forces of hell shall not prevail against it.

  • Rick
18

Sure, Zenmaster, that makes perfect sense – having all their lives believed devoutly in a single God with a major hangup on anyone worshipping anyone or anything other than Him, the Jewish followers of Jesus would be moved by numerology to skip two and jump to three. By that seme logic, most Zen Buddhists worship DeSotos! :rolleyes:

In point of fact, what seems to have happened is that the evolving understanding of who Jesus was and what He achieved forced the Followers of the Way (shortly to be called Christians, but not yet) to confront a conundrum – Jesus taught of a God quite separate from Himself, yet with whom He identified very closely, and who He was came to be seen as God acting out the drama of salvation in human form – “When we see Jesus, we see God.” Then there was the experience of the Holy Spirit – God indwelling and reshaping the spirit and character of the believer, and unmistakable as anything else if one has experienced it.

Yet the God of whom Jesus taught and the Spirit testified in their hearts was the single God of Judaism, not the chief god of a polytheism. There is only one God, not a whole set of deities that are somehow manifestations of each other.

The concept of the Trinity is an attempt to explain, in Greek philosophical concepts, how it can be that YHWH the Father is not Jesus, and neither are the Holy Spirit, yet each of them is God, and yet there is but one God.

Of course Jesus doesn’t mention the word “trinity.” Jesus didn’t teach theology; he taught the proper response to God and to one’s fellow man, and that humans without divine help are incapable of achieving it.

And of course one of the main reasons the doctrine caught on and became the accepted means of explaining that conundrum was that many cultures had trinities of various sorts in it – Brahma, Siva, and Vishnu; Osiris, Isis, and Horus; etc.

The Holy Family concept is very late Catholicism, and has jack squat to do with the Christian Trinitarian concepts. A check through the writings of the ante-Nicene Fathers could disabuse you of that notion. Though you probably have a point in that Marian doctrine seems to be strongest in areas with a strong pre-Christian goddess concept, and she seems to fill a need in the piety of many people.

19

I know, I admit I am totally ignorant on this subject. I went to a 7th Day Adventists school from preschool - 5th grade. They never taught us about the trinity. It’s not that I have never heard of it, of course I have heard of the trinity. It just was never taught to me, so I thought it was a certain sect or maybe another religion… who knows.

Thanks for the quotes, they do show how Jesus could be considered God. But they are still very vauge in my opinion.

Jesus says ‘I AM’, but he never says, ‘I AM GOD’. Are there any where he clearly states he is God? It’s mostly disciples I see saying things like, ‘My Lord and my God!’. I mean, just because the disciples looked up to him as a messiah and thought of him as a God, does that mean he is God?

Maybe I am not seeing it, but Zenmaster showed a passage which showed a straitforward answer. Are there any straitforward answers that say ‘I am Jesus, I am God’?

20

My understanding, at least as it pertains to Koine, is that the difference is in the capitalization of the word (kyrios = "master, teacher. Kyrios = “Lord” in a divine sense).

I believe this has a parallel in Hebrew with adonai vs *Adonai.

My college Greek was Attic, which only skimmed the NT. My source for this interpretation of *kyrios/Kyrios is a primer on Koine Greek specifically designed for use with the NT and it had a decidedly Christian slant to it. I haven’t found that that this primer has been dishonest exactly, but it can be somewhat narrow in its definitions, withholding some variants which gay give a verse a different color here and there.
Am I correct about Adonai/adonai at least?