Whatever I learned in Jew school and in Jewish Studies?
It’s not reasonable to expect that he was formally educated in anything, because he came from a social class that was not educated and grew up in a culture where well over 90% of the populace was illiterate. The fact that he was (maybe) called “master” by his disciples does not in any way indicate a formal education, and asserting over and over again that it did will not make it so.
I would also point out that just because the Gospels claim that his disciples called him rabbi does not mean they actually did. The Gospels are basically fiction, after all.
“Jew school?”
Well if you learned anything about ancient Jewish history, you should have learned about the shifting of the center of Jewish worship from the Temple to the Tanakh in the diaspora.
Do I care if Jesus existed? No. Do I care if he could write? No, but the OP asked a question and since the only freaking evidence I have is the Christian bible, I’ll take that and add what I know. Since Jesus appeared to be a scholar of Torah and was treated as such, I’m going to vote “probably literate” or “highly possible”. This man wasn’t like 90 per cent of the population, anyway. John the Baptist was presumably literate, since his father was a priest. If Jesus and John were close, is it really so far fetched that Jesus learned to read like his dear cousin?
**Why **are you even in this conversation? To be negative?
<kicks self because her father sent her to Christian primary school>
//end Dio Show.
Jew school is what I lovingly call my Jewish instruction. :o
I said your choice of the word “worship” was odd when you first used it:
It would be better to say that the synagogue became the focus for worship after the destruction of the Second Temple. No one worships the Tenach. If you want to talk about study focus, well, the Torah will always reign supreme. But the Tenach was written and kickin’ in 30 BCE.
Anyway, since you think the Bible is a work of fiction, I’m going to go with “Dio Can’t Have A Strong Point in This Thread”. You know nothing of Jesus, his birth class, his life, etc. if the Bible is fiction, so WHY ARE YOU IN HERE?
The Christian Bible is not historically reliable and cannot be cited as evidence.
I am posting in this thread to provide as much factual information as I can to the question asked. We can’t really know much about Jesus, but we can know something about the cultural context he supposedly grew up in, and he grew up in a context where there is virtually no chance he could have had access to formal education.
Oral facility with Hebrew scripture? Quite possibly. I would even say probably. Actual book learning - nope.
I don’t see how. All religions do not have the same focus of worship or practice.
No it wouldn’t. Synagogues are only congregations. The actual focus of religious worship was study of the Tanakh. I’m not saying they worshipped the Tanakh, if that’s what you’re getting at. I’m saying that they had to change their primary method of connecting with God from the Temple practices to study of the Torah.
I said the Gospels are fiction (which they basically are, with perhaps a few historical kernels), and I’m posting in th thread to provode factual information about the liklihood of a 1st centry Galilean peasant being able to read. That’s not a Biblical question, its a historical one.
Where do you get your factual information about Jesus if you don’t use the Bible?
Jews do not operate in a caste system. There is so much of his life we do not know. We know he was regarded as a Torah scholar. He did have disciples.
According to the Bible, his uncle was a priest. He had close literate friends. His brother (probably) read.
It’s not that unlikely.
No. Synagogues existed before the Temple, but after they became the center of Jewish life. “Pulpit rabbis” emerged.
I wasn’t denying that the Tenakh grew in importance (along with literacy rates, I presume, since it is commanded to teach your son’s son). You just have a poor choice of words. I’m not sure what your points are, exactly?
How do you know he was born in Galilee?
How do you know he wasn’t related to John, son of the priest?
How do you know he wasn’t educated or studied for the majority of his life?
How do you know he was a peasant?
How do you know he existed?
The OP’s question was not, “Did people in Galilee read?”
The question was, “Was Jesus literate?” You can’t possibly answer that without giving some degree of validity to the idea that Jesus existed.
If you think he did exist, then you can’t have opinions on his education level without some sources.
Fascinating post, Blake. What Greek word would have been used for the ‘real carpenters’?
You don’t. But you can get factual information about the time and place he lived.
Actually, in 1st Century Palestine, they pretty much did. They lived in a very straified and static class system.
Cite?
Perhaps.
None of this has any historical support for it.
Yes it is. First Century Galilean peasants did not go to school.
Of course synagogues existed before the Temple. Why do you keep repeating this as if it’s meaningful?
No poor choice of words. You just seem to be having some difficulty grasping what I’m saying.
We don’t know any of these things. What I’m saying was that IF he was a Galilean peasant, as the Gospels claim, then he is highly unlikely to have been educated.
We can answer the question about the liklihood of any Galilean peasant being able to read, which was virtually zero.
Those sources would not be the Bible, but based on actually reliable historical and archaeological data about the time and place he was supposed to have lived.
The Gospels themselves are not history and can’t be relied upon to tell us anything.
I don’t pretend to be an expert, but according to the sources I have seen anybody who had mastered their trade and was able to complete a project from start to finish was called an architect; “prime tekton” or literally the “overseer of the construction workers/construction site”. Jesus was 30 years old and Joseph, presumably Jesus’ master, was dead, yet both Jesus and Joseph were still not being referred to as “Architect”. That hints strongly that they were just labourers, not a tradesmen. It would have been quite insulting at the time to call a master tradesman a labourer. Yet even Joseph was addressed that way indicating that he never made it to tradesman level before his death and hence could not have apprenticed his son.
But the point to remember is that almost all words all have multiple meanings, and Tekton is no different. Its most common usage in that time and place was “labourer” but it just *could *be translated as “craftsman who works in wood”. So those who claim that Jesus was a carpenter have a hook on which to hang that particular claim. As with all such words, it is necessary to know the history and culture of the time and to look at the context. I don’t pretend to know the former terribly well, but i have read those who do, and they give persuasive arguments that the word did not mean carpenter. But the context I do know fairly well.
As I noted earlier, Jesus’ parables and manner of speech fits perfectly with a “day labourer” and not well with a craftsman. His parables show an fairly intimate understanding of the lifestyle, including disputes between the labourers and their employers over the fairness of wages, harvesting, ploughing and sowing, grinding of corn, fishing and so forth. The only real references to building is when he speaks of a wise man building on rock and someone planning to build a tower, but even there he isn’t referring to the work of building, rather the location of the building and the financial planning.
Now maybe Jesus was just ceaselessly talking about menial labour to try to connect to his power base. But the degree of familiarity seems to hint at him being of that class himself.
And this is, I think, one of the things that makes the study of religion interesting - not the truth of religion (it’s all fairy tales), but the way that we can use it as a springboard for the study of real-world, everyday history.
Dio, did Jews of this era have formalized, hereditary castes, or are you just referring to a low level of social mobility?
Also - though I suspect you’re probably right, and that it would have been unlikely for a peasant of this place and time to be literate, I don’t think it can be definitively ruled out. Even for a peasant, there are advantages to having a degree of semi-literacy - social status, for example. Possibly easier record-keeping for tax purposes. And where there are incentives for literacy, some folks are going to pick it up. It’s unlikely a dude like Jesus would have been literate, but not nearly a “flying pig” level of improbability.
I’m referring to the de facto caste system largely imposed by the Roman (and before that Greek) occupations. The Jews per se did not have a formalized caste system, but vertical social mobility was virtually non existent.
Right. I’ve consistently only said that it is unlikely that he was literate, not that it was impossible. Its certainly possible that laborors of his class may have had some limited literate abilities (like being able to write their names or recognize a few words). It’s also possible that Jesus could have studied somewhere formally as an adult with a group like the Essenes.
Yabbut, that’s all from the Gospels, and if you’re going to use the Gospels as a record of what he said then it’s inconsistent to ignore what they say when they mention him reading in the synagogue. :smack:
Dio, you can’t say things like, “If Jesus was from Galilee as the Gospels claim” and then say that anything else the Gospels say is fiction.
You can’t. You either need to say, “I don’t know” or take what the Gospels tell you and consider the nature in which they were written, the historical context, and the history of Jewish education. It’s OK to look at the Gospels with a critical eye - I certainly would - but it is NOT okay to dismiss the Gospels while calling Jesus a man from Galilee. Then when someone says, “Where is your source?” you say, “The Gospels claim it so.” derrh
And then you try to redefine a word again! Social classes are* not* caste systems. Again, you have your words confused. :rolleyes: While there was limited mobility among paternal lines - someone from the Tribe of Benjamin would never be a Levite - you’re suggesting that whatever social or economic class one was born into, one would stay in. That’s not correct. At. All.
The OP asked if Jesus was literate. We don’t know. So we take into account what we do know. Well, that doesn’t get us anywhere. Josephus is only somewhat reliable. We have to look at the Gospels. If we question their validity then the only thing we can do is throw our hands up and say, “I donno. Impossible to say.” If that is your position then SAY THAT and leave the thread be.
Some of us like investigating the mysteries and unknowns of history. That’s what makes SD so great. If you can’t participate productively, then state your “I donno” piece and move on.
I participated because I thought the question interesting. I don’t have a background in Ancient Hebrew or Biblical Greek, but I did receive a rather sound Jewish education (and one that never stops for most Jews). I gave a perspective of what it may have been like for a first century Jewish boy. I took what the Gospels claimed (cause that’s what we’re working with), what I’ve learned from the 10,000 lectures on Jesus given by Jewish historians, some logic, and then I made my conclusions.
Did it ever occur to you that it’s entirely possible that early Christians painted Jesus as a poor man risen to fame because of his Godly enlightenment? This would show that salvation was available to every man, and that wealth and status could easily blind you. Don’t you think it’s possible that Jesus *wasn’t *the son of a poor carpenter? Maybe he was the son of an architect.
If you want to consider historical context then you need to consider the political reality of Jews from 100 BCE to 100 CE and the Nazarines’ shift away from Judaism and into “Christianity” as they dealt with their own political troubles.
Are we talking about a semi-autonomous Jewish people or Romans?
Source, please. Caste is not class.
I’d also like to add that acquiring literacy is not the equivalent of moving up in social class. Jewish thought has never declared one’s economic or political status a requirement for Torah study or literacy instruction.
Oh really?
I’m sorry, you’re not allowed to make that statement because you’ve already declared that he didn’t study with the Essenes **based on what you read in the Gospels ** - sources of information you find to be fictional.
Yes I can. That’s a provisional statement. It
is not a statement about Jesus per se but about the cultural and historical context in which he is alleged to have lived. I don’t know why you’re having trouble with this, but it is perfectly reasonable to make statements about what kind of education 1st Century, Galilean tektons were likely to get without regard to whether Jesus existed or whjether what the Gospels says is accurate. You do understand the meaning of the word *if/i], don’t you?
[quote]
You can’t. You either need to say, “I don’t know” or take what the Gospels tell you and consider the nature in which they were written, the historical context, and the history of Jewish education. It’s OK to look at the Gospels with a critical eye - I certainly would - but it is NOT okay to dismiss the Gospels while calling Jesus a man from Galilee. Then when someone says, “Where is your source?” you say, “The Gospels claim it so.” derrh[/qu8ote]
This is completele Bollocks. I’m not calling Jesus *anything necessariliy, I’m saying that IF he came from the cultural milieu alleged in the Gospels, then THIS is what the likelihood would have been.
I don’t have my words confused. I know the difference, and the social straification of 1st century Palestine was a virtual caste system. There was no virtical mobility, and people had ritual hangups about who they could or could not associate with.
Yes it is. Completely. I would refer you to John Crossan’s Historical Jesus for a detailed breakdown of the social stratification at the time.
What we do know is that 1st Century Galilean peasnats did not go to school.
You should take your own advice. I, on the other hand, have provided informed information. you don’t seem to have much, if any background in historical method if you think that the only way to research historical Jesus is to read the Gospels (which are fiction), then throw up your hands if you don’t know how to answer something.
Your information is incorrect. Sorry. I do have a background in Biblical Greek and Biblical criticism.
This is a fun hypothesis, but it’s based on absolutely nothing.
I have done that. I’ve spent years researching it. You’re the one who seems to lack any relevant background here.
Both.
This is pointless pedantry. It was a virtual caste system. Social mobility was pretty much closed.
Who said it was?
I didn’t declare that he didn’t study with the Essenes. Read my posts again. I said it was not impossible, but that there is no evidence for it and that the Gospels depict him doing some things which would violate Essene vows (and not just drinking wine). I am not posting a conclusion there, just information for people to do with as they wish.