Hardly at all. I just need you to articulate more clearly when it is permissable to deal with nasty regimes (and Czarist Russia was kinda nasty) and when it is not, and what form that cooperation might take.
You seem to be all over the map here, frankly. So am I, BTW, but at least I am openly admitting that these things have to be approached situationally, weighing the options at hand, and even then spectacular mistakes sometimes are made.
Your debate tactics are unpersuasive, elucidator, particularly when you ignore the fact that Mr. Moto provided exactly the justification for the actions of the Sandinistas. After having the U.S. stomp on Nicaraguan sovereignty for 30 of the first 40 years of the 20th century, the U.S. allowed Somoza to become dictator, then armed and trained his suppressive National Guard for the next 36 years. If one was a patriot of Nicaragua and was offered aid from ther U.S.S.R. to reclaim one’s country, were they morally obligated to refuse it simply because the “good” nation was helping arm the oppressors?
We did not owe the Nicaraguans aid to raise crops or pay bills. We owed them a true execution of the Monroe Doctrine that would have kept all foreign intervention (especially ours) out of their land in order to let them solve (or create) their own problems. Once we abrogated that trust, they had a perfect right to seek to throw off our bonds. (We also had an opportunity to help the Sandinistas in 1979, thus edging out the Cubans (not the Russians) from establishing their priorities in the country. Instead, we used the presence of the Cubans to rationalize the re-arming of the murderous National Guard.
I am no fan of the Ortegas, particularly in light of the depradations against the Mosquito people, but it is a bit hypocritical of us to claim that we “had” to fight them (using the thugs we had financed for 30 odd years) when we never even made the attempt to co-opt them to politically or financially.
– highlights mine.
I’ll be darned. So the US gets a free get out of jail card er…because it’s the United States. Isn’t that swell. And not hint of jingoism to boot.
So much for “debating.”
You’re not making an admission here, Moto, that is the substance of that argument. It is hardly a concession to aver, once again, what you have already argued. And as for your suggestion that “mistake were made”, well, yes. But there is a difference between a blunder and a policy enforced over decades. You are simply being honest enough to admit that you are right. Swell.
We ought not to have done it, and when it showed signs of failure, we doubled down. Sound familiar?
But all indications show (correct me if I am wrong) that you would have favored a thaw in relations with Castro.
Again, when was the last free election in Cuba?
Sounds like you would have made your own policy choices. I see no evidence they would have led to much of a difference - except for one thing, perhaps. The dictators would have been left-wingers, and there would have been a pack of idiots running around with pictures of them on their T-shirts.
Of course I do. But it has little to do with the ideology of the regime, and everything to do with not punishing the people of Cuba for our (rather puny) disagreements with the regime. IMHO, we would have had more cordial relations with Cuba long, long ago were it not for the need for Pubbies to pander to the virulently anti-Castro Cuban community in Florida. We have trade relations and diplomatic relations with Viet Nam, what have they done to deserve our approval, outside of manufacturing sneaks? They have free elections in China? Doesn’t seem to bother us much there, outside of the occassional empty gesture.
The best way to convince people to be more like the Americans is to be more like the Americans ourselves.
Or, rather, to better represent the American ideal, because as it stands we’re doing a fine job of being like the arrogant, aggressive, belligerent American stereotype so commonly perceived.
The down side of this approach is that it requires patience. Looking at Cuba, or North Korea, or Iran, or whichever dysfunctional state you want to consider, the people currently in power are proud and stubborn and will not, while they live, mend their ways regardless of the incentives offered. They need to be displaced, or, better yet, they need to die off so the youth of the disaffected and oppressed classes can have an opportunity for reform. We must be a model for them, and we must encourage them, but most of all we have to wait for them. This is slow, and frustrating, and fraught with potential setbacks and delays.
The up side of the approach, though, is that you do not, by your actions, make things worse.
The up side of the interventionist approach — as advocated in the present War Against Militant Islam by the current U.S. administration and its defenders, or by past hawks who used Vietnam and Afghanistan as proxy fronts against Commie Nogoodniks — is that you see immediate results, you don’t have to be patient, you go out and Get Shit Done. You don’t need to let the bad guys collapse as a result of their own corruption and inherent malignance. You poke a weak spot, and they fall over.
The down side is that in the long run, for various reasons, you almost always make things worse, and sooner or later you find yourself more or less back where you started.
Look at North Korea. Years of the “Sunshine Policy” was having little apparent effect beyond holding the status quo. Then comes Bush, impatient with the lack of progress, who implements the “Fuck You Bouffant Weirdo” policy, and things rapidly begin to get worse. Eventually, cooler heads prevailed, and we’re now back to a minor variant on the Sunshine approach, which means slow — frustratingly, agonizingly slow — progress… but progress at any speed is preferable to calamitous regression.
Castro’s never going to schedule a free and fair election. Ever. Not while he draws breath. But as long as we don’t do anything pointlessly stupid, we have a chance at influencing the people who will follow him after he croaks.
We need to think in generational terms, like the Chinese do. We need to stop trying to treat foreign policy like a microwave oven, dancing hungrily in front of the flickering light because we’re starving for Hot Pockets. You and I may not see the fruits of our efforts; but that’s fine, because even if we don’t, we need to make it possible for our grandchildren, and the grandchildren of today’s enemies, to reconcile. And pounding our chests like baboons is precisely the wrong way to go about it.
I thought there was no moral high ground from which anyone could be criticized.
Oh yes, I forgot - that only applies to the US.
Could you describe the status quo that was being held from about 1950- 2001? I mean in terms of nuclear proliferation, firing off missiles,violations of the DMZ, famines, and the like.
Regards,
Shodan
One simply cannot mention reflect upon our support of Syngman Rhee - egalitarian and visionary of democracy - without a swell of pride. Stand aside, Jefferson. Put a sock in it, Paine. Behold the man!
Well, maybe not so much…
I think we can be proud of that.
For all of the problems South Korea’s military rulers may have had, they did grow their country’s economy and permit some measure of freedom. Moreover, the alternative to them at the time was pretty clear, and Kim il-Sung was one of history’s nastier figures, I’m sure you will agree.
You expressed considerable admiration above for the Sandinistas permitting elections and then relinquishing power. Surely some appreciation ought to be shown for the South Korean junta that did the same thing in 1987 - indeed, they went considerably firther than the Sandinistas did.
South Korea today is prosperous and free. Nicaragua isn’t prosperous, and is only partially free.
So why should we be ashamed of supporting Syngman Rhee?
I think your arguments here are no longer coherent, elucidator. When you attempt to insult your opponents here, you merely point to the hollowness of your own position.
And they DID make the trains run on time!
Okay, I have no idea whether trains are more punctual in South or North Korea. I just couldn’t help myself. 
Well, there were the development of the technologies that later gave them missiles and the Bomb, the occasional violation of the DMZ because the Kims were and are jerks, and ditto for famines. What has been the fairly consistent status quo from 1953 to now has been the patience Cervaise describes. We and both Korean sides sit parked on the DMZ, generally hoping nobody does anything stupid. Unlike in Iraq, except for the isolated incidents I mentioned, nobody has. In the mean time, Kim Jung Il hasn’t set up an obvious successor so, when his high living almost inevitably catches up with him (says the 400lb 53-yr-old with blood pressure in the normal range 
), there is a good chance somebody a bit less jerkish will take over, just as we have Raul Castro slowly taking the baton from Fidel’s hand.
In the Quality biz we talked about kaizen, a Japanese word meaning gradual, orderly, continuous improvement. Baby steps. You cannot turn a company–or nation–upside down instantly and expect your changes to work as expected. Patience is required because people aren’t machines. Look at the old people in Russia who miss Stalin. They liked the way things were despite the occasional famine because it was what they were used to. The Stockholm Syndrome applies to countries, too, and we need to take that into account in our foreign policy.
As for the circular discussion between Moto and luc, my dear friends, give it up. It’s going nowhere and has really gotten boring. If you don’t give it up I’ll drag out my Sandanista anecdote, and I know what thread killers my anecdotes are!
Shouldn’t worry about that. The revelation that my arguments are incoherent has kinda crushed my spirit.
Humiliation…that doesn’t lead to erectile dysfunction, does it?
I haven’t been on a snipe hunt like this since the fucking Boy Scouts.
Better just agree to disagree, or somewhat agree, or something. I don’t know.
You mean apart from developing the Bomb, kidnapping South Koreans, firing off missiles over Japan and tunneling under the DMZ, everything’s been just fine?
Regards,
Shodan