Was Lucille Ball a Communist?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
… And the Soviets could well have become a nuclear power before us - especially with the help of captured German scientists…
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[Sidetrack]
In the early days of WWII, FDR was flooded with crackpot schemes for super weapons, some from heavy hitting politicos he was compelled to pretend some interest in. Not being a technical person (by any stretch) he had no good basis for judgement. (You may recall the famous “bat bombs”…)

Anyway, when he recieved Einstein’s letter about the possibility of an atomic bomb, he dismissed it out of hand, just another crazy scheme. But by sheer chance, a few days later, he was reviewing some intelligence reports, and came upon the minor fact that the Germans had embargoed all exports of uranium from Czechoslovakia. And the light bulb went on…
[/sidetrack]

42

I remember an interview with Lucie Arnaz about this in the early 90s. She said that in 1930, being a Communist was “like being for Ross Perot today.”

43

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
… But I still think you may give the Communists far too much benefit of doubt.
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Its a good bet that you’re not gonna! Damn, Moto, these people weren’t monsters hatched from eggs, they are people who came to conclusions and commitments different from yours (or mine, for that matter). Have you never met any red-blooded, flag waving, all American radical lefties?

Surely you don’t imagine I love my country less than you! Than why would you be so sure that they did? Whom would you prefer? Someone who tries do right, but chose wrong, or someone who just sticks his hands in his pockets and watches it all go by?

44

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Its a good bet that you’re not gonna! Damn, Moto, these people weren’t monsters hatched from eggs, they are people who came to conclusions and commitments different from yours (or mine, for that matter). Have you never met any red-blooded, flag waving, all American radical lefties?
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Sure.

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Surely you don’t imagine I love my country less than you! Than why would you be so sure that they did? Whom would you prefer? Someone who tries do right, but chose wrong, or someone who just sticks his hands in his pockets and watches it all go by?
[/QUOTE]

Thought experiment, please.

If an ex-Klansman were to run for office, I think we’d have to ask some pretty pointed questions of that individual, wouldn’t we? Wouldn’t we have to ask whether that person was still a Klansman? Whether they were still a racist? Whether they had ever lynched anyone? How much money they gave the Klan? How much they got from them? How high in the organization they were?

Unsatisfactory answers, especially now that we know the horrific nature of the Klan, would make this person a permanent outcast in American civic life, and rightfully so.

Now, since we know that Communism isn’t exactly an innocent ideology, and since we now understand that it is incompatible with American patriotism in much the same way as being in the Klan is incompatible with, well that same patriotism, why wouldn’t the same pointed questions apply there as well.

There is a big difference between the patriotic left and the Communist Party USA, isn’t there? And while I’m sure the distinctions could be blurry at times (especially since the CPUSA liked to muddy the waters and subvert any honest organization it could find) there is no question at all about the Communist Party itself.

45

[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
Her hair was Red.
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I never believed that for a minute. To me, it just looked like shades of gray.

46

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
…There is a big difference between the patriotic left and the Communist Party USA, isn’t there?..
[/QUOTE]

Sure, there is, now! But the past is a different country, they do things differently there. Remember, this was a time when labor issues and strikes were likely to involve bloodshed. We have a kinder gentler capitalism now, and if you want to believe that such things as the eight hour day and workers rights to organize were a gift from the generous hands of Republicans, you’re welcome to. But it ain’t so.

A case can be made that FDR saved this country. Not by drastic change, because most of what he proposed got stalled and gutted by reactionary jackals of the ruling…uh, conservatives. Concerned that things didn’t move too quickly, got to be prudent, go slow. But he gave hope, and more importantly, he fostered that notion that the country belongs to us, the dull, the ordinary. The people. We, the people.

A nation is a collective, Moto, like a tribe but writ very large. I love being an American, our revolutionary heritage, how we tore the aristocracy a brand new asshole. Love it to pieces! What’s wrong can be changed, what’s broken can be fixed. * Venceremos!
*

47

[QUOTE=elucidator]
It was a common joke in leftist cirlces that the Communist Party USA would have gone broke had it not been for the dues-paying FBI agents.
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Just had to say, that’s pretty funny! :smiley:

48

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Now, since we know that Communism isn’t exactly an innocent ideology, and since we now understand that it is incompatible with American patriotism in much the same way as being in the Klan is incompatible with, well that same patriotism, why wouldn’t the same pointed questions apply there as well.
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Patriotism is a weird animal. I suppose one could love one’s country, but hate the Black people in it. In much the same way, one might love one’s country, but hate the economic system most people in it prefer.

And while racists are generally ignorant and mean spirited, I see most modern-day communists as simply naive. They don’t set out to destroy freedom, it just seems always to end up that way. Communism and democracy just don’t seem to work together. Call it an empirical observation.

49

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Sure, there is, now! But the past is a different country, they do things differently there. Remember, this was a time when labor issues and strikes were likely to involve bloodshed. We have a kinder gentler capitalism now, and if you want to believe that such things as the eight hour day and workers rights to organize were a gift from the generous hands of Republicans, you’re welcome to. But it ain’t so.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t need to tell me, friend. My grandfather had a SWOC pin. His dad went into the mines when he was a teenager.

Still, somehow they managed to do all of this and become nothing more radical than a Democrat. Imagine that.

50

FDR was a Democrat, and widely characterized as a radical. Guess by who? Imagine that.

My own Daddy Rip (grandfather) was a Teamster, saw my first picket line at 2 years. They lost that one, five years later they did it again, and it was even more bitter and mean than the last time. But they won that one, and if I live to be a hundred, the look of pride on those mens faces will be as fresh as it is now. The Teamsters broke his heart with their corruption and duplicity, but that’s another story…

51

[QUOTE=elucidator]
The Teamsters broke his heart with their corruption and duplicity, but that’s another story…
[/QUOTE]

Jock Yablonski was murdered a few miles away and a few weeks before I was born.

I’m a lot like you, I grew up in this environment. Thing is, though, in Washington County, Pennsylvania, it is one party rule, and quite corrupt. I had no interest in being a Democrat, especially there, and Reagan era Republicanism held quite a lot of appeal to me.

Doesn’t mean, though, that I don’t know and like lots of Democrats, especially the union guys I grew up with. And my brother is still a USWA member, if you can believe that.

52

Hell, Moto, I got kinfolks just to the left of Otto von Bismarck, don’t need to tell me! Got a cousin probably on the Straight to the Wall Come the Revolution List. Will try to get him off it, but failing that, maybe he’ll leave me his bass boat. Keep it in the family.

53

I think it’s perfectly valid to be a patriotic American communist. There isn’t any reason why communism and civil liberties can’t co-exist. It isn’t a great system for all, but it seems to work out pretty well in China and Vietnam. There have certainly been more successful communist countries than libertarian ones.

54

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
I think it’s perfectly valid to be a patriotic American communist. There isn’t any reason why communism and civil liberties can’t co-exist. It isn’t a great system for all, but it seems to work out pretty well in China and Vietnam. There have certainly been more successful communist countries than libertarian ones.
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I find it strange that you mention communism and civil liberties coexisting, and then mention China and Vietnam, two countries with rather significant problems with civil liberties.

But then, defenders of communist regimes often are caught by this, aren’t they?

55

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
This may send the thread in an entirely new direction, but I think this needs to be explored further.

elucidator, I am well aware of your distaste for McCatrthyism. But I think your anti-anticommunism has, like so many others’ anti-anticommunism, made you quite blind to the real dangers of Communism.

The American Communist Party was controlled and financed by Moscow, and if things had gone any differently and the Soviet Union had come out on top, Gus Hall wouldn’t be remembered as a historical footnote - he would be remembered as basically the American Stalin. The experience of Earl Browder proved this - when he tried to distance the party from Moscow, he was promptly expelled from it and ostracized by leftists for the rest of his life.

Perhaps it is true that some patriotic Americans were momentarily seduced by Communism, but that does not change the fact that Communism was fundamentally hostile to and incompatible with American patriotism, and that the leadership of the Communist Party in America were not patriotic in any sense.

Given all of this, I don’t know why you can claim that it was once entirely possible to be a patriotic American and a Communist. Again, I think perhaps that sort of thing could happen for a time, like a devout Catholic mulling over atheism, or a Sunday school teacher just sitting in the parlor of the brothel to listen to the piano music. Eventually, though, these sorts of things really are incompatible with each other, and you really ought to face it.
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I think you watched to much “I led three lives.”

56

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
There have certainly been more successful communist countries than libertarian ones.
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I really can’t think of any libertarian ones, successful or not.

57

As late as the sixties you could not travel across california without seeing signs everywhere calling for the impeachment of earl warren the “communist” who was leading the supreme court and the man eisenhower referred to as the biggest mistake i ever made in office. i remember hearing in the 50’s that adlai stevenson was a communist. it was an entirely different era and most left leaning individuals were able to see the benefits of communism without necessarily espousing it as an ideology or poliitical ideal. many progressive blacks became communists “in principle” to lend support to paul robeson who moved to the soviet union for a time and because the commmunist ideology did not differentiate between the races. in fact the school that trained foreign nationals in moscow, what we might refer to as “subversives” was named after an african revolutionary, patrice lamumba. this was while bull connor was standing on the steps of a mississippi schoolhouse keeping little black girls and boys from going to a white school and turning fire hoses on protestors. it was a different time and you cannot believe all the hype you read about it today. if it had not been for the rosenbergs there might still be a useful american communist party.

58

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
I really can’t think of any libertarian ones, successful or not.
[/QUOTE]

Switzerland and pre-handover Hong Kong come instantly to mind. Of course, I don’t think of these as particular models in any but an economic sense.

59

[QUOTE=dennis gallagher]

if it had not been for the rosenbergs there might still be a useful american communist party
[/QUOTE]

People who didn’t like them may have called Warren and Stevenson might have been called Communists, but they clearly weren’t.

And I’d like to see the argument you make in support of the assertion I just quoted.

60

i think part of my sympathy toward the american communist party was due to the nature of the huac hearings, the naming of names, the hollywood ten and the numerous stars whose careers were effectively ended by their refusal to name names. even today (well a few years ago) there was a large portion of the audience at the academy awards dinner that refused to stand or applaud as elia kazan was given an oscar for his career because he named names at one of the hearings. but the star whose career i have most admired who was hurt by them was john garfield. he was my favorite actor of all time even though i was too young to have ever seen one of his movies in a theater. “force of evil,” “body and soul,” “pride of the marines,” “the postman always rings twice,” “four daughters,” and many more are some of the best hollywood has to offer from the 40’s. tragically he died of a heart attack at 39 shortly after refusing to name names and being blacklisted even though clifford odets had testified that garfield was never a member of the party (as garfield himself had testified.) movie fans who have not seen his work are in for a treat. he was james dean before james dean.