Was this used car purchase a scam? How?

Factual Questions
1

My friend just sold her used car and had a weird unsettling experience. We think it may have been a scam but aren’t sure how.

Dramatis personae (anonymized, made alphabetical in order of appearance):
Amy (my friend selling her car in Pennsylvania)
Bob (potential buyer sending txt messages)
Dan (supposed buyer)
Don (Dan’s buddy who was real buyer but then wasn’t)

Amy places ad offering her car with 300,000 miles for $4500 cash.

Bob sends txt expressing interest, but hesitates. Amy warns him she will sell car to whoever wants it so offer may not last.

Dan sends txt offering to buy car. Amy & Dan agree to meet at Amy’s bank. But then Dan shows up also bringing his buddy Don. They look car over and find some clear legitimate problems Amy had not noticed, argue price down to $3400, give her currency which she goes into bank and deposits. They all then drive to nearby notary to make it official.

At the notary, things keep getting more complicated and confusing. It now appears buddy Don is the one buying the car, not Dan. They say they will drive car to Washington DC where they live. Notary says they need tags to drive it to DC and need documented insurance to get tags. No, no, actually, it’s not Don buying it after all, it’s some paper entity, an LLC or something. They produce some kind of proof of insurance for the LLC. But wait, actually, we have dealer tags to put on it. On and on this goes, generally lots of odd details and twists and turns. Notary reassures Amy regardless of what Dan and Don do, Amy should be in the clear, lots of proof here she is selling and relinquishing ownership, and a cell photo of the completed contract (and she already deposited their currency).

Unfortunately, Amy has no way to get home without car, but Dan and Don agree to drop her off at her house, which seems to go fine.

Soon afterwards, Amy gets a furious txt message from Bob, the guy who expressed interest earlier. He attaches a screenshot of a new ad w/ photo of the same car, but listing 150,000 miles and asking $7000, with Dan and Don’s names on ad. He calls her multiple obscenities and accuses her of falsifying the mileage. She ignores it. Then Bob sends a second furious txt threatening to call the police and turn her in for committing fraud, calling her more obscenities. She ignores that. Finally, a third txt from Bob, saying simply “I’m calling the State Police!”, which she also ignores.

But she’s rattled, and suspects a scam, though is not sure how it was supposed to work. Other than the fact that they saw where she lives (and would have known from the title in any case), she’s not vulnerable here, right? How does Bob find out Dan and Don bought the car? Are they all working together? Did Bob expect Amy to offer him money to not call the police, or what?

We’d both appreciate any insight you can give on this whole experience! Thanks!!

2

First mistake-She should have met up at his bank and watched him make the withdrawal to make sure that the money is legit. If it turns out later that it isn’t she is on the hook because she made the transaction.

3

I don’t know what the scam could be (if it is one), but things definitely aren’t adding up. Bob accused Amy of falsifying the mileage…by doubling the actual mileage? That’s not how people falsify mileage; you’d instead do like Dan and Don, and state something lower than the true mileage.

Given this is FQ, I’ll hold off on guesses until there’s been an opportunity for someone who knows to contribute.

4

It’s a risk, but I’d say that’s pretty minor. I assume a bank accepting a $3400 cash deposit is going to check the bills for counterfeits.

5

They’re working together. Dan and Don put up the new ad (maybe falsified the mileage) and Bob “discovered” the new ad. Who chose the notary?
Not sure of the ending unless she gets a call from the “police” demanding she pay a fine before they arrest her for fraud.

She should also check if the title was actually transferred.

6

Not always immediately, if it is busy. I have deposited hundreds of dollars in the past and no great effort was made to check the authenticity of the bills at that time.

7

Yes, it’s a risk, but Bob is probably not going to run a scam predicated on the mark’s bank being too busy to notice counterfeits.

8

Working together, or Bob and Don are the same person.

9

You can’t get more together than that.

10

Bank already told her they check for counterfeits before completing deposit.

11

If the Bill of Sale was notarized, and everybody agreed, and wasn’t under duress, Amy should be in the clear.

I can’t even figure out what Bob is hoping to gain here; he sounds like a crazy person. Car’s been sold, dude; if you have a problem with the current ad, take it up with them.

ETA: My ex-BiL was kind of an “auto speculator”; he would snap up cars that he could make any sort of profit on, especially if the seller could be talked down in price, and then just turn around and re-sell them. As long as Amy is happy with the price she got, and the buyers are happy with the price they paid, all should be well. I’m not surprised that some buyers might be using an LLC to make a purchase, and be lost as to how they are handling things (LLCs are stupid easy to set up, and can be just done on a whim; hell, even I have one- doesn’t take a genius! And through my job, I often have to deal with “Oh, this multi-million dollar development deal we’re working on? Well Person B is going to be signing as a managing member of the LLC now, so take Person A off…”)

12

Amy chose the notary. Amy is doing all this close to home, 3 hours from where Dan and Don say they live.

13

If this is a scam, it has to be a pretty high confidence one, right? It involves at least 2 people driving someplace and spending time, AND they have to buy the car for paper currency before any possible payout!

14

Usually a scam doesn’t start with a cash deposit at the mark’s bank with zero expectation of any followup transactions.

Dan and Don are sketchy car buyers. Take my advice, Amy should be sure to keep every scrap of information about the sale, names, numbers and documents, and immediately get her insurance off the car, turn in plates, whatever is required for her side post-transaction. I had a sketchy car buyer who never got his own registration or insurance, just put some old plates on it… guess who got the call when he crashed it into someone else? That’s right, the last guy who registered the car properly.

Bob sounds like a crazy person, but not necessarily trying a 3d chess level scam with Dan and Don.

15

Or “Bob” expected to be paid off by Amy in exchange for not calling the state police. That would explain the threat to call the state police, which - when ignored - gets followed up with an ostentatious announcement of “I’m calling the State Police!”. He probably expected her to quickly call him back and beg him not to contact the cops.

If Bob is a legit potential buyer, he may be imagining a bait-and-switch in which Amy lists a (high-mileage) affordable car to attract interest, but actually only has a (low-mileage) expensive car once they show up to take a look. If this is the case, then Bob is way out of line for accusing Amy of fraud without evidence when it’s actually Dan/Don who have fraudulently rolled back the odometer on the car so they can sell it for a $2500 profit.

16

I can’t see what Bob’s problem is, Dan and Don have the right to sell the car for whatever they want, although where 150,000 miles went and why they both have to be on the listing is very strange. Either way none of that is Amy’s problem or responsibility. And unless the VINs match maybe it isn’t even the same car, it could be that Dan and Don bought Amy’s car for parts or something. I would definitely cut contact with Bob, Amy and he have nothing to discuss, Bob didn’t bring the money, he didn’t get the car.

17

I don’t think it was a scam. There’s some weirdness, but enough things point toward legit that I think it’s ok.

Scammers do not show up with a bunch of cash. Full stop. Not even counterfeit cash. Buying a used car with a bunch of counterfeit cash and doing it in a bank parking lot (where the bank could discover it and call the cops) and then going to a notary to sign papers is just the dumbest possible way to move counterfeit cash. Not happening.

So Dan and Don are legit (in some sense). I agree with those who say they’re auto speculators (possibly not totally honest ones, given the ad with reduced milage), and they’re new enough that they are still fumbling with the LLC paperwork.

Bob is one of those weird entitled craigslist idiots who thinks that the world revolves around him. Ignore him.

18

This is my take on it. Dan and Don are real scam artists in that they’re re-selling the car using fake mileage information, but that’s an old-school used car salesman sleazy trick.

But Bob is probably just jumping on a chance to maybe scare someone into putting some money in his pocket. He knows Amy just sold the car, so she has some money available. I suspect he’s the sort who always complains at a restaurant in hopes that they’ll take something off his bill if he bitches enough. There are a lot of people like that in the world.

Hell, I did something like that entirely by accident just this week. I filled out an online survey after doing a curbside pickup order, and as it turns out, my honest answers about them not having some of the items I wanted to buy prompted them to send me a coupon for $10 off my next order. I didn’t expect that at all, but I’ll take it! :smiley:

19

Just because I know lots of people who have done similar things, my first thought was that Amy’s car was bought as a parts car.

If Bob is any kind of a scammer, he may make lots of offers on high-ticket things he sees for sale, not follow through, and then make threats when he doesn’t get the item, and hope to make anything from $25-200 off of each threat. He got lucky that this time there was the ad showing the car.

20

I agree, D&D are probably car flippers. How easy is it to roll back odometers nowadays, anyway? I would think it’s not that easy with electronic odometers, or it would be a widespread problem (but IANAMehanic.)

Possibly Bob is an intemperate asshole who thinks he’s getting scammed. Or you could be right, it could be a follow-up scam; we got the car, now see if we can scare her for hush money…

I guess another question is - how cooperative were they about going to the notary? Were they really hoping to avoid that step and leave with an un-notarized(?) car, thus making her more vulnerable to the threat about state police?

The silly bit about cash is that they would more likely have said “give us your bank account number and we’ll transfer the money in…” but they didn’t. So that’s not a scam angle they were working.

Could they legitimately sell the car for more with the alleged low mileage? The extra issues they found - are they things that could be glossed over by a less knowledgeable buyer? Were these guys like the old real estate flipper angle, finding all sorts of technical excuses to knock down the price that only a very technical person could find on a quick inspection? (Like did they check the brake shoes? Who usually checks brake shoe wear level when buying a car…)