Well, I think getting into bed and having sex with a passed out person qualifies as rape myself.
Though I don’t think even sven has made herself into a victim. If anything, it’s the opposite–she’s saying that she isn’t a victim.
If everything happened as described, he is a person who was told by a girl that she didn’t want to have sex, and then had sex with her anyway. You don’t think that makes him a danger to society?
Earlier you discuss “date rape” in a way that suggests you see it as somewhat less rape than other forms. One reason this is a common view is that the media is full of presentations of this as acceptable behavior. That teen boys are such horn dogs unable to control their desires that they can’t really be blamed for pushing things further than the girl wants to go. And she’ll enjoy it in the end anyway, she always does on TV. It’s why over 50% of Californian teen males surveyed thought forcing a woman to have sex was acceptable if she had “led him on” or gotten him sexually aroused. Another survey, in 1986, found 30% of men willing to say they would rape a woman if they knew there was no chance of getting caught (same survey, 50% said they would force a woman into having sex in the same situation, so I am not sure what the 20% who said they would force her thought rape involved otherwise…)
The reason this guy is a danger (assuming the version presented is true) isn’t that he is going to hang around dark alleys and rape and beat women walking back to their cars; instead what he is likely to continue doing is date raping girls who say no. He probably doesn’t think he has done anything wrong, not because he thinks she actually meant yes to sex when he asked if she wanted to cum, but because he doesn’t believe (and this view is reinforced regularly by society) that a woman saying no actually has to mean there won’t be sex. The language makes it pretty clear he knew that she didn’t want to be penetrated.
She says: I want you to make me come
He says: OK… starts to take his pants off
She says: No sex
He says: Why not?
She says: List of reasons…
He says: Do you still want me to make you come
She says: Yes
That he saus still is a pretty damn good indicator that he meant “do you want me to bring you to orgasm even though you have said you don’t want sex.”
If things happened as she says, he is a definite danger to society.
Again, if I get ass drunk and agree to wrestle with a guy outside a bar, I may well be an idiot. I may well not expect it to go well. But if he in the middle picks up a tire iron and starts braining me, he has still committed a crime. The penalty for stupid actions isn’t rape, and nor should it be.
My reading of the story was that even sven was awake for intercourse.
something bad happened to me = victim
Yeah, but he didn’t get her consent before he started doing stuff. She may have gone along with it, but I don’t think it was consensual. If I’m asleep, and a guy gets into bed and starts feeling me up or having sex, I haven’t consented, and I’m going to view him as a rapist.
I don’t think it works that way. Lots of people have bad things happen to them without being victims. I’ve had at least one involving sex which I think was kind of skeevy and made me feel bad, but I don’t view it was rape or myself as rape victim in that particular instance.
And in any event, I think waking up to some creep doing anything sexual to you when you were asleep does qualify as being the victim of something.
I wasn’t a “victim” and I wasn’t raped, but it still wasn’t right, he was wrong and did a bad thing, and it should not have happened.
This is what I mean by saying there need to be ways to talk about unwanted sexual encounters beyond “rape” or “not rape.” What happened to me is not the exact equivalent of enjoying some wine with a guy at a party and rolling around joyfully in the spare room, but that’s what our current way of thinking says- that they are exactly the same. The only other option would be saying it’s exactly the same as some guy jumping out of the bushes and attacking me.
I’m not sure why we are so obsessed with assigning women a level of “blame” for sexual encounters they might have had, and why every unwanted sexual encounter is boiled down to how much “blame” we can assign the woman. I’m also not sure why we tell women that they have no right to have negative feelings towards any sexual encounter that falls short of rape. The world is complicated. Sex is complicated. Why can’t we talk about it in a nuanced way (which is what the author seems to be attempting?)
[quote=“Freudian_Slit, post:64, topic:552468”]
By this definition of consent I’ve never received nor given consent for sex. I’ve always just started doing stuff or the girl started doing stuff to me. Lack of objection in a sexual encounter=consent. Assuming, of course, that the person is actually conscious.
Doing something you later feel bad about =/= something bad happened to me
That doesn’t appear to be the case here.
But if someone gets into bed and does stuff to you, that doesn’t read to me like it’s something you did. More like something someone did to you.
Since the guy started when she was passed out/asleep, and continued even when she was just letting him do it, even if it doesn’t meet the legal standard of rape, it still is pretty creepy to me. It’s hard to see her as an active participant in that.
The guy in her story may not legally be a rapist, but I’d do my best to stay away from him and I’d warn any female friends of mine not to get drunk and hang out with him.
Maybe you should start communicating more. Communicative sex is better sex, generally. Certainly better than drunkenly raping a girl in the woods.
And here we go again. Why are mean old people blaming poor widdle women? There’s really nothing complicated about this situation. You gave effective consent to have sex with someone, and would like to be absolved of responsibility for that decision because you were drunk. And you would like to be absolved of your responsibility for being drunk because that was someone else’s fault. In this situation, “complicated” and “nuanced” mean, don’t hold me responsible for what I chose to do.
That isn’t what she said happened:
She didn’t say she woke up to him doing sexual stuff to her. If that is what happened then I would do a quick 180 and join the creep/rapist/skeevy side.
I still think it’s creepy. I mean, if you woke up to a random stranger in your bed, even if you didn’t scream or say no (out of fear or panic), and the guy had sex with you, we’d consider that rape. Why does the guy get a pass because she knew him?
Unfortunately in the majority of US jurisdictions, that wouldn’t legally be rape.
The guy doesn’t get a pass because she knew him. He gets a “pass” (this statement is just ridiculous btw) because she didn’t say no. Really, must I stop all activity and go through a checklist for effective consent? If she doesn’t say no, I assume that she is fine with what is going on.
Fortunately for me it isn’t. If it did, I would be a serial rapist. (Not that I ever conspired with my friends to get a girl liquored up in order to sleep with her. Just that I’ve had sex with my fair share of drunk chicks without ever forcing them to say “I [insert name here] do give my fully informed, legally binding consent to the sex acts we are about to perform”.)
She is fine with it. Or scared. Or too drunk to answer. But what the hell, at least you are getting yours.
Asking someone to take responsibility for their actions is not assigning blame. Pointing out that you chose to drink, you chose to go up to a hotel room and you chose to consent rather than say no isn’t blaming you for what he or your friends did.
I give the girls I’ve slept with enough credit to be able to formulate the words “no” when they don’t want to have sex. And no. None of them were ever too drunk to say no. I’d thank you to take that accusation back.
But if a guy randomly gets into my bed, and he’s not someone I’ve been dating but is an acquaintance or a stranger, I might very well just freeze up. It’s never happened to me. I’d still consider it to be rape. Do you really think that you can get into a total stranger’s bed and have sex with her and that it’s totally okay even if she didn’t say anything the entire time?
If the guy in even sven’s situation had been her boyfriend, then I wouldn’t see it as necessarily sleazy. But if it’s a guy she never thought of in that way…then no, I don’t think it’s entirely consensual. Legally, I don’t know if it was rape, but the guy sounds like a total perv to me and I’m really sorry that happened to you, even sven.
I do think there’s a big difference between even sven’s situation and what you might be thinking of. It’s one thing to be on a date with someone or flirting with them and then start to get physical with them without necessarily saying, “Is this okay?” But if you get into someone’s bed without clearing it beforehand, that crosses over into really creepy territory.
I’m not making any accusation at you. I am saying if you don’t ask a person if they want to have sex with you, you can’t be certain that they want to have sex with you. I’m sure that, in your case, the girls were all gagging for your studliness. But asking tends to be a better way of finding out than assuming.
I wouldn’t consider having sex with a girl for the first time without asking her if she wanted to. Especially if there was booze involved in the whole situation. Probably because I don’t think drunken one night stands are the be all and end all of life.
even sven was in his bed, or at least his hotel room.
It would be ideal to always get affirmative consent (and perhaps he did, see my post about drunken first hand accounts), but that’s just not the real world requirement or expectation. If I am having sex with a woman and she seems to be participating without objection I assume I have her consent. Seemingly every woman but those in this thread are able to articulate the word “no” when they don’t want to have sex.
What is your problem? First off, when you say “Or too drunk to answer. But what the hell, at least you are getting yours” in response to my post, you sure as hell are making an accusation. And this gagging for my studliness is just further nonsense. If you have something to say come out and say it. Don’t beat around the bush with not so vague insinuations.
It’s not always a requirement, depending on the jurisdiction. But why isn’t it a real world expectation? Is “do you want to have sex” such a hard question to ask?
I haven’t got a problem. I think the standard should be that of affirmative consent. And even if it isn’t the legal standard, I think it is a good idea for the participants in sex to know their partner is willing, and it also makes for better sex that way, especially when it is the first time, and even more especially when there is alcohol involved.
I just find it somewhat telling how much people will resist actually, you know, asking their partner if they want to have sex. That and a certain attitude I noted in your posts on this subject.