Someone mentioned date rape in a different thread and it got me thinking. What exactly is the definition of date rape? I am concerned about this for a few reasons, as a male. Sure, date rape is a serious thing, but it seems to me that the real definition is quite ambiguious.
Say I ‘pick up’ a girl at a bar (yeah, right) anyway, I am not the best looking guy in the world, but she had a few drinks in her, so I was looking fine. We go back to my place and have kinky monkey-like sex for hours. In the morning she wakes up and sees how not-attractive and not-skinny I am. She is immediately disgusted.
For a lot of people I have talked to, this fits the definition of date rape. Anytime the girl feels dirty or angry or sickened adout the things she did the night before.
Does this make any sense, or am I way off base here?
JB
I’m suspect I’m gonna be flamed, but what the hell.
I hate the term “Date Rape”. If it’s rape, the “date” qualifier diminishes the hideousness of the crime (it makes it sound less serious, somehow), and if it’s not rape (“Aaww, c’mon Suzy…if a fella doesn’t get off, it can damage stuff…y’ don’t want me to haveta go to the hospital, do ya?”), then the word “rape” shouldn’t be used.
Rape is forced sexualized assault or the threat of the same, regardless if’s a person dragged into an alley by a stranger or someone on a date with a would-be ‘friend’ who’s threatened. The situation is irrelevant to the crime.
I wouldn’t count the situation you described as rape. Kinda classless, but not “rape”. IMHO.
The preferred term these days is “acquaintance rape”. It’s rape by someone the victim knows rather than by a stranger. I don’t believe there is a legal definition of it in most jurisdictions (although there was talk recently in the UK parliament of differentiating the two, I’m not sure that ever actually happened) - a crime that meets the legal definition of rape will do so regardless of whether or not the victim knew the attacker.
We’ve discussed this before, but I’ll say the same thing I said the other times - your hypothetical situation would not be rape. A woman (or a man, for that matter) is no more absolved of responsibility when she chooses to drink and then have sex than she would be if she had chosen to drink and then drive.
Since this is the Pit, I’ll add that if you knew she was only sleeping with you because she was too drunk to know better, you’re a sleaze. But you’re not a rapist.
Doing something you regret the next morning is NOT date rape, and anyone who includes simple foolish drunken behavior in the definition is doing a serious disservice to women (and men) who are genuine victims of that crime. I’ve had numerous encounters with men that I would take back if I could–I was an active alcoholic from the ages of 14 to 26, so there’s a fair amount of foolishness there–but I would absolutely not classify any of those experiences as rape, with one exception, even though some of those memories make me cringe. Despite being drunk, I made a decision to indulge in that behavior, so I have no one to blame but myself for my bad decisions.
The one incident I would call rape, or attempted rape, since he was not able to complete the act, was when a “friend” took me to a party, and decided that he had the right to have sex with me because he drove me there, despite my protestations. Fortunately, he had had so much alcohol and drugs that he wasn’t able to “perform”.
Regretting it the next day doesn’t make it rape. Not wanting to at the time, or being unable to give consent, such as being passed out or under the influence of drugs like Rohypnol, does.
As a victim of date rape I find the OP extremely offensive. As a man you have concerns, try being a woman laying on a couch bleeding after your “date” just raped you. Imagine having a great night with a friend only to have said friend whisper in your ear that he’s going to kill your family if you don’t lay back. Imagine the fear you have, forget the pain, it’s the fear that stays with you. It’s not consentual, not changing your mind, it’s an assualt on your body and your life. Yes, in any situation it comes down to your word versus his, his words promising to kill your family.
And yes some women might change history but there’s a big difference between actual date rape and an alcohol induced slip up. If your concerned then don’t have sex with a drunk woman, it’s that simple. Play it safe and just ask for her number, that way you don’t have to worry about her changing her mind ok?
As a fully heterosexual male, I just want to point out that I find what you are describing as repugnant as anything I can imagine. I like sex, a lot. But only if both parties are willing. Anything else is worthy of castration. No shit, I’d cut them off in a heartbeat. Bastard.
It seems like some people are confusing rape with sex. Sex is a voluntary consensual act between two people, rape has NOTHING to do with sex. Rape is about power and violence. I agreee with Fenris, calling it “date rape” diminishes the hideousness of the crime. It’s another way of soft-pedaling violence in our culture. But that’s a subject for another time…
yep, drunken one-night stands are a mistake, not rape.
it would be rape if she was passed out…
last year my drink was spiked, i spent the night in hospital and said a lot of really weird shit, which made the medical staff kinda concerned as to what might have happened…
but i have no memory of the events that night, so i’d rather not try and find out. i have the luxury of ignorance, loads of women don’t.
This is true, but incomplete. If she is sufficiently impaired by alchohol or drugs so as to be unable to consent, that’s rape.
Where the line between merely drunk and too impaired to consent can be an indistinct one, particularly in the harsh light of the morning after. Unfortunately, I fear that some people’s fear of entering this grey area has blinded them to the fact that there are clear cases of aquantance/date rape that occur when someone does not consent or is unable to consent.
What I say below has nothing to do with a man having sex after the woman has said no. It also has nothing to do with a man giving her drugs so she cannot say no.
OK, I do not agree that a woman being too drunk and having sex means she was raped. If a man is just as drunk as a woman, how or why should he be held accountable when the woman isn’t? What if the man is more drunk than the woman? Is he still responsible?
If she is so impaired by alcohol that she can’t even think rationally, shouldn’t it be her responsibility to make sure she doesn’t get to that stage? Why should the man get blamed for failing to properly monitor the alcohol intake of the person he’s trying to sleep with?
In short, why do we define sex as something that a man does, but something that happens to a woman?
Good question, Ender. MHO, it’s wrong. A bad double standard. Only personal experience I have with this was years ago. Me and a woman, both totally trashed, fucking our brains out. She tells me to stop maybe…10 seconds before I was about to come.(she already had) I stopped. But, damn it was hard to do! You either respect your partners or you don’t, it’s that simple.
Mamahen: I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I am sorry about what happened to you. I hope you have been able to forgive yourself and maybe eventually even forgive your attacher. All I was getting at is there is way too much of a grey area between consentual drunken sex and rape. I have only had one relationship that was sexual, and it took years for that to happen. I, for one, dont go to bars or parties with the intent on ‘picking up’ women. I go to have a good time. It seems my friends care about nothing more than getting laid, but I am not like that.
oh, and ruadh, I am a sleaze, but I would never have sex with a lady that was drunker than I.
Fenris, I agree that saying “date rape” about the occurence of a rape is wrong and misguiding, but from the people that I have talked to, the term is most often applied to a drug, ie the “date rape drug.” In that case, it is just accenting the fact that many sleazy, fucked-up men out there use it on their dates at the time.
And MamaHen, what you describe sounds more than horrible, and I can’t begin to imagine your pain. However, I have to agree with andros and say that it really doesn’t seem like the OP says anything offensive about rape. It simply asks an honest question about the grey area concerned in rape issues, in an attempt to get things cleared up. IMHO, that is beneficial to the cause of people who are fighting against rape. The less confusion about rape there is, the less of a chance there is that some guy will get out of being punished by saying “I didn’t know it was rape.”
Personally, I also don’t think that the situation described in the OP constitutes rape. I also agree that the idea of the guy being held responsible for both parties not being able to control their intake is wrong.
Actually, in Ontario, it does mean that. If any alcohol is involved, consent cannot be (legally) given – that goes for both parties.
I believe that both parties would be responsible, since neither could have (legally) given consent. However, I believe that men rarely press charges. In the majority of cases, as I understand it, (at least coming from a university point of view), the woman is usually more under the influence.
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“If she … can’t even think rationally, shouldn’t it be her responsibility…?” Well, see it’s not her responsibility because she can’t think rationally. And if she can’t think rationaly, then she can’t give consent. I think you’re asking if the woman should make sure she doesn’t become impaired, so that she can’t say no? While I’d agree that any person should take reasonable precautions to make sure they don’t come to harm, I don’t think the law usually takes that view. And that question makes me really uncomfortable…
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I suspect the same is true in reverse, as well … but again, it doesn’t usually happen that way. Generally, one can tell if the person they’re speaking to is intoxicated – if they are, then you should know that you may not have sex with them. Similarly, you should know the (approximate) age of your (potential) partner – if they’re below the age of consent, then you should know that you may not have sex with them.
This is, of course, only the situation as it is in Ontario. Your area probably varies … but be careful.
So, you mean that when my then-boyfriend and I went to Toronto to celebrate our two-year anniversary several years back, and I had several more glasses of wine than he did (since he was the driver) and then we went back to our hotel and really celebrated our anniversary he was actually RAPING me?
I am absolutely stupefied at this.
And had I ever been the victim of a genuine rape, I can’t imagine how offended I would be.
If both parties are responsible, then how can one press charges against the other? It may just be me, but I’m not really following you on this train of thought.
he was actually RAPING me?