I remember being terrified of nuclear war up until about 1988. The real last gasp was of course the fall of the Berlin wall. But even putting aside all the historical stuff, Moore has commented that a lot of the grimness was simply the side effect of a “bad mood” he was in at the time and he finds it kind of odd that so many comics after this took on such a grim and gritty mood that for him was more a personal thing and less a reflection of the world per se.
I had caught the whole extra star flag thing in the comic, but somehow I missed the implication that it was Vietnam. I had always thought it was just a random easter egg and that Puerto Rico or some other territory had joined.
I agree. The scene was important to the whole “why do people become heroes” thing and the specific character arcs. And the explicitness was appropriate to the movie. The two problems I see were that 1) while the music was appropriate, the particular vocals didn’t work and 2) the explicitness did seem a little out of place without a lead up - they would have seemed tonally more appropriate if there had been a little more sexiness much earlier in the movie, even in the background.
While it’s big budget, given the source material, and the daringness of the rest of the film, I’d hesitate to call it “mainstream”. And there have been plenty of mainstream films that were just as if not more explicit.
I’m not sure why so many people had a problem with this. When I first read the GN I glossed over the “secret origin” of the pet and it still seemed like a normal thing for a rich superhero to have. Lots of rich weirdos have exotic pets - imagine if they also had a super science department on hand. And besides that, the pet served a plot point with regards to trapping Manhattan in the disintegrator, and the small personal sacrifice Ozy made in that regard.
On another note, I recently read that Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis are seen in their civilian roles in the NO-SS scene in the GN. Did anyone notice if they were also in the scene in the movie?
We see two older, clearly homosexual gentlemen in the scene where Dan and Laurie are having dinner, whether or not they are Hooded Justice/Captain Metropolis is anyone’s guess.
Speaking of Hooded Justice; we know that The Comedian is a rapist, murderer and generally unpleasant piece of work working under the guise of a ‘hero’ - why didn’t Rorschach go after him? We know his opinion of rapists (“Never!”) and the hypocrisy of The Comedian working as a masked hero would stick in Rorschach’s craw no end, with his unflinching personal morality. Seems like he would be celebrating The Comedian’s death, not investigating it.
He could have done both, easily. He seemed to think the Comedian’s death was the first of a string of serial mask murders, and regardless of his feelings about the Comedian he’d want to stop the killer from going after the other masks he knows.
Of course, even at the point in the movie where he talks about that, I was thinking “One data point does not a pattern make.” That was a big assumption on Rorschach’s part which led him in a grossly wrong direction until it was too late.
True. But Rorschach is never seen even voicing against The Comedian. Given that he roasted a child killer alive (in the GN, in the movie he cracks his skull open), he should be equally opposed to The Comedian’s killing of the pregnant Vietnamese woman.
It’s hard to believe he lets The Comedian’s behaviour slide because of a ‘hero bond’ in the Crimebusters; neither were particularly interested in forming up with the others in the first place. More likely he couldn’t give a toss about The Comedian whilst his theory compelled him to act for the safety of those he did give a toss about (Dan, mainly) and himself.
This still doesn’t explain why Rorschach didn’t bring The Comedian to justice himself. In my humble view, it’s totally out of character for him, especially after he ‘becomes the mask’.
Was it ever established that Rorschach even *knew *about the killing of the Vietnamese woman? Sure, Dr. Manhattan knew because he was there, but I doubt it was the sort of thing that either of them spread around once they got back to the States. Remember, the killing happened in Vietnam during the war, and the two of them left after they killed her. It could be that no one else even knew who did it, and it’s likely that nobody investigated it too deeply.
Even if Dr. Manhattan kept his glowing blue gob shut; he shot her in a bar full of people, in his Comedian garb, so there was no shortage of witnesses. Granted, this could have been covered up by the U.S. government and the witnesses persuaded to shut up, however I’m fairly sure his behaviour would have been fairly well known to those ‘in the know’, and Rorschach makes it his business to be in the know, at the expense of broken fingers.
Likewise Hooded Justice wouldn’t have had any reason to keep The Comedian’s attempted rape of Silk Spectre I entirely to himself. I also doubt Rorschach would have approved of him wantonly shotgunning fleeing protesters, and we know Nite Owl II was there for that.
Given that Rorschach is never one to compromise on evil, it makes no sense that he would completely ignore The Comedian’s numerous forays into obvious evil.
Rorschach looks up to the Comedian for his right-wing politics and tough guy status. Little Walter Kovacs looked up to Truman for decided to nuke Japan as well. There’s a case to be made for his absence of a strong father-figure clouding his ethos. – and that’s my yearly maximum for pop psychology. I’m going to go smoke, take a shot whiskey, and work on my truck.
Indeed; It’s entirely possible that I’m overthinking it; Rorschach is pretty much batshit insane so looking for method in his madness may well be an exercise in futility.
Regarding the killing of the woman in Vietnam, keep in mind that she had just slashed his face with a broken bottle. There’s more than a reasonable argument for self-defense. if anything bugged me about that scene, is that it wasn’t fast enough. Comedian seems to hesitate. I think it works better if he just pulls his gun and plugs her, almost in reflex.
And as for the attempted rape of SS1, it was well-known in the comic because of Nite-Owl 1’s book. Rorschach described it as a mere “moral lapse”, and his dislike/contempt for SS1 (indeed, women in general, particularly those that remind him of his own mother) is apparent.
A “tasteful” sex scene like the ones you see in mainstream films that are either so badly lit you can’t see who’s doing what to whom (lookin’ at you, “Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead”) or where the lovers move so slowly that you’re not even sure they’re awake, or where they keep the blankets over themselves in case someone might see them would be all wrong. The scene is about the two of them giving in to their dark superheroic lusts. Night Owl has put the costume back on, and it’s not coming off (psychologically speaking) and it has been rewarding, because in their first experience re-caped, they saved a lot of people from being killed in a fire. They’ve both got a pure adrenalin rush of self-gratification going.
That’s why I don’t think the Skinamax scene was raunchy ENOUGH. If I’d been directing, I’d have made it like the sex scene in “Rancho Deluxe” where Jeff Bridges and his girlfriend are doing it in the woods, and they’re going at it a mile a minute (instead of the relatively sedate stuff in the Watchman scene) and they’re sweaty and their faces are flushed and they’re making all sorts of grunting and panting noises, not that fakey moaning stuff.
That would have worked much better, because it would have portrayed the sense of freedom and release they were experiencing a LOT better than the Skinamax sex scene they actually filmed, which was STILL much better than that tasteful mainstream stuff that would have run directly counter to the mood of the scene.
Absolutely right. Which is why several of us have said that we don’t need to see anything- passionate kissing, up against the ship’s hull, passioned moans, cut to after-scene. Just like in a James Bond film. It’s not about raunch or seeing penetration, it’s about the fact that Teh Pr0n (even Teh Softcore Pr0n) really doesn’t belong in “Mainstream” films, IMHO. It’s jarring.
Look, I’m going to be crude here- if I’m watching porn, I want to be able to have a wank as well. In the privacy of my own home, I can put a porn film on, entertain myself, then turn it off and carry on with my day.
In the theatre, though, I’m just sitting there unable to do anything. It takes me out of the movie experience, and reminds me of an ex-gf who promised hot naked threesomes with her friends and then never delivered on it. It leaves you hot and bothered, and unsatisfied.
So, with regards to sex scenes in film, my personal feelings (and it would seem those of other posters as well) are either do it properly (ie in an X-rated explicit hardcore porno film) or don’t do it at all (The James Bond approach).
Off-topic, but those sorts of theatres are illegal in Queensland, so there aren’t any around here that I’m aware of (I wouldn’t go to one even if they were around, FWIW.)
The Hooded Justice disappeared not long after the assault. Possibly killed by the Comedian.
Nobody else talked about the incident, until Hollis Mason published his autobiography. This was sometime after the Crimebusters (“Watchmen” in the movie) split up. That’s why Silk Spectre II didn’t go ballistic when the Comedian entered the room. She didn’t know about it yet.
Rorschach’s mysogyny, and his admiration of the Comedian’s politics, led him to write off the assault as “alleged”.
Besides, the Comedian was constantly travelling the world on secret missions for the government. Rorschach usually operated in the slums of New York City. They would rarely have crossed paths.
Whether or not Hooded Justice was still around (and I like that the comic was vague on these points, as it was on what role if any the Comedian had with regards to JFK and Woodward/Bernstein), Captain Metropolis definitely was not - the comic mentions him being killed in a car crash in 1974.