WAG guess here.
Your beliefs?
I listened to the President’s speech. Oddly enough, there was a lot I could get behind. There were a couple of times where I thought he was batshit insane, but that’s par for the course, I guess.
There’s two different issues that are being conflated. I agree that we need single-payer health insurance which ensures basic coverage for all citizens, however, that is not the same thing as the (apparent) insistence that the government should be responsible for levelling the incomes of Bricker and Dancing Dead. Dancing Dead and his wife should be able to get dental checkups, prenatal care, and basic health care, but the government is under no obligation to give them care that Bricker can afford and they cannot. Dancing Dead should acquire a better skill set if he wants to afford the private suite in the for-profit hospital.
Having a college degree is not a key to entitlement. You get what the market says you’re worth.
Isn’t keeping the working populace healthy a good thing?
Less time missed from work more money into the flow.
It keeps workers happy.
Happy workers mean more GNP.
One more thing…
General welfare.
I swear I read that somewhere.
Can you point me too it?
I don’t have a problem with the rich being able to afford better care than anyone else as long as everyone gets an adequate level. That doesn’t just mean emergency care where they patch you up and send you home. It entails doctor visits and proceedures for non life threatening ailments.
That is very true but the market has overwhelming spoken that a college degree dramatically increases your value.
So those that clean, those that serve…
Deserve nothing?
You truly are an asshole.
Criminy, can’t you read? I’m for single-payer insurance because it would reduce medical costs and make health care more affordable all around, but that is not the same thing as the “gimme, gimme, I need, I need” attitude you espouse.
Indeed, it is, and the vast majority of workers have health insurance. I do and I work at a nonprofit. The trouble is that spiraling medical costs are making health insurance less affordable, which single-payer insurance would fix. We should also be concerned about the indigent, the disabled, and single-payer insurance would give them basic care.
The Preamble to the Constitution referred to the general well-being of the populace, not permanent dependency of the poor upon the workers.
Kick in prenatal care, and I’ll agree 100 percent.
[QUOTE=gobear]
There’s two different issues that are being conflated. I agree that we need single-payer health insurance which ensures basic coverage for all citizens, however, that is not the same thing as the (apparent) insistence that the government should be responsible for levelling the incomes of Bricker and Dancing Dead.
[QUOTE]
I think I said before that sometimes you do have to suck it up if you choose a degree with low-paying jobs that’s not in high demand. That’s not news, and you’re right that a college degree is not an entitlement.
However, in this country, it seems like you need a degree (or commensurate work experience) to get an entry-level job that pays 8 bucks an hour. So if I take out loans for a degree that ends up costing me around 30,000, and I can only get jobs that pay barely better than minimum wage, it seems like I’m shelling out a lot and only getting a little.
I would love if this country provided basic healthcare, prenatal care, and dental checkups; unfortunately that seems like it’s going to be a long time coming if ever. It still wouldn’t provide my SO with the care she needs for a (somewhat rare), sometimes fatal, always painful, condition. Unless I’m mistaken, it also wouldn’t provide for the poor who need heart transplants or cancer treatments. They would just get to die.
I’m not saying that my SO and I are destitute: we can afford a few luxuries like an internet connection (although it would be nearly impossible for her to keep one of her jobs if we had no Net at home). We can usually afford gas and food, except when we’re between paychecks. I do think that trying to make everyone’s income the same would be counter-productive, although executive salaries here are, IMO, completely out of control and bear no correlation to actual skills.
Also, gobear, you don’t know what my skill set entails. Both my SO and I have managerial experience and very good work records, as well as other skills that most people around here don’t have. Yet we have a hard time finding good jobs. Most managerial positions, even in big corporations here, barely pay above the poverty line. One of my SO’s jobs paid her around 800 dollars a month for a skilled position, and her healthcare would cost around 200 dollars a month. That’s 25 percent of her paycheck. For family reasons we can’t leave the area (her grandparents are very sick and we might end up having to help take care of them). We also don’t have the money to move to a place that would provide better pay, but even if we did, living costs would increase.
I do think that the government (yes, taxpayers) have a moral obligation to ensure that all citizens have equal access to healthcare and education. I judge a society on how it treats its poorest citizens. Ours fails miserably.
I also resent the implication that others (not you) seem to be making, that my SO and I are lazy and feel entitled to take others’ money. We have no problem paying taxes and we would even pay more if we could see that those monies were being used for the welfare of society, especially people who have a harder time than we do. If and when we move up a tax bracket or two, we have no problem with the government taking more from us. In fact, we think they ought to do so, if it is used to help the disadvantaged, not corporate handouts or military ventures.
I felt for the position you are in.
But that has died.
Bigotry is only if you happen to be gay.
Fuck you you elitest asshole.
Where did I say that? For the umpteenth time, I’m for single-payer insurance that would cover all workers and the indigent and the disabled. Can’t you read?
But what I am not for is permanent dependence of the poor upn the better-off nor do I support the government levelling incomes. DD and wife should get basic care–I’ll repeat for the illiterate—THEY SHOULD GET BASIC CARE–but if they want fancier care, they need to pony up for it.
Define basic care.
Aspirins?
Hot soaks for a sprain?
People don’t run up beaucoup medical bills for basic care.
Because what you went through was wrong.
Now you fetishise that pain, but your fetish isn’t a sound basis for public policy.
gobear-
I am a little wary of your term ‘fancier care’. One doesn’t want an MRI or a CAT scan becuase of the novelty of it. They want it becuase they need it to diagnos a disease. If Richy McRich wants to go and get the best doctors and pay through the nose for them I have no problem with it but the average joe should get adequate care not some sort of in and out cheapest way possible deal.
On a more personal note I do not think you, Bricker nor milroyj are assholes but I do have to admit the latter two are not helping their case. It would also help the debate along if you would just ignore Reeder becuase well you see he is an idiot. Reeder if you don’t mind would you go and slobber in another thread. I don’t really have a problem with some economic inequality. My main quarrel in fact is with the absimal disparity in the k-12 educational system. If we gave everyone something close to an equal starting point I would feel much better about our economic disparity.
The thing is, we’re never going to be able to afford fancier care, at this rate. My wife is interviewing for a third job now that may provide her with enough insurance coverage to see a doctor and get a prescription to treat the symptoms. Maybe it’ll provide enough for her to see a “Living with Pain” specialist. I don’t think she should have to wor 60+ hours a week just to get basic coverage. I know what you’re espousing would take care of that, but she’s likely going to need major surgery and hormone replacement therapy just to live a normal life.
How on earth is that her fault? And please explain why someone like her (and me) is forced to suffer simply because we have a system that awards greed over need? She works and contributes. She doesn’t sponge off the welfare system. She’s not trying to take someone’s opportunity to buy a plasma TV or a new car away from them. The current system values a plasma TV over plasma.
It comes down to how you value human beings. I see money as no object where it comes to the well-being of my fellow citizens. And it really makes me angry that my wife could be crippled for life, or die before her time, because someone wants to hang on to as much of his money as he can. I value life far more than material wealth. That’s why I’d have no problem paying higher taxes for a national healthcare system that took care of all problems.
Thank goodness tyere are those more eloquent than I.
Poor folks should just suffer.
As put by Bricker and Gobear.
Again, get the skills that will get you the better lifestyle. I don’t need to know what skills you have; you don’t make enough money with the ones you have. Having great skills doesn’t matter if you can’t find anyone willing to pay you for them. And where do you work that you get paid $8.00/hr for an office job? Can’t you shop your resume around and find a better deal?
But who will pay for expensive care for the poor? Do we tax Bricker to pay for it? Can we cover everything?
Agreed, and that’s something the economy willl have to remedy.
I’m finding it hard to believe that managerial positions pay so little.
Agreed
Well, our country’s priorities are seriously fucked, and I agree that handing out largesse to corporations from public funds is obscene, but I’m also opposed to paying for people who make no contribution to society. I don’t mean you, but, ay people who waste an education of frivolous subjects then demand that the rest of us pay for her lving expenses. However, if a person works, there is no excuse for not paying him or her enough to live on. Henry Ford was no friend to labor, but he priced his cars so that the men who built them could afford them. The very idea that we have working poor is an affront to the values of our society.
And that’s a problem we have to solve. I don’t know what the answer is, but your wife should have the care to live a healthy, pain-free life.
But in our society, people should hang on to as much of their money as they can. I don’t work so Even Sven doesn’t have to. OTOH, we also have a social compact with one another to keep people from falling into beggary or starvation. I am for payng taxes to ensure that citizens have access to health care. However, I also don’t want to subsidize able-bodied leeches on the system who want the rest of us to pay for them permanently.
I live in one of the poorest states. Yes we DO tax Bricker to pay for it. Socialized healthcare has been shown to be effective elsewhere. On that note I am going to add up some costs to show how socialized medicine is actually cheaper than the ‘system’ in place here. Watch for the GD thread about it over the next day or two (I need time to put together the data).
Perhaps because you do not live here. My point is relevant even fi we were not managerial types however. Why should I (or anyone else) simply because of an inate ability (say intelligence or aptitude for certain tasks) be able to get a better quality of service (healthcare for example) than another less blessed by ability or genetics? My own skills, money-making ability or intelligence have fuck all to do with my worth as a human being. To suggest that because I have a greater skill-set than someone else and am hence entitled to greater care (due to the money-making ability associated with that skill-set) is to be in favor of Social Darwinism. the CEO of “corporation X” has no more intrinsic worth as a person than the welfare mother. now should that CEO get greater benefits from what ought to be a social service than the welfare mother.
And a lot of them are kept poor by the outrageous cost of staying healthy. please, what exactly is a frivolous subject? Philosophy? No real job prospects there. Any liberal art? Sure, we do not need thinkers and artists. :rolleyes:
I am sure you have noticed. Many people in this country are NOT paid enough to live on. Why the hell do you think we work multiple jobs? And barely get by. The working class in America is consistently screwed in favor of those who create nothing. The money movers on Wall St. The middle class is increasingly struggling. Why? Health costs mainly. Having insurance companies that effectively own the damned hospitals and health system is a recipe for disaster. They can pump up the costs because “the cost of providing increases”. Never mind that it is they themselves who are increasing it.
[quoteAnd that’s a problem we have to solve. I don’t know what the answer is, but your wife should have the care to live a healthy, pain-free life.
But in our society, people should hang on to as much of their money as they can. I don’t work so Even Sven doesn’t have to. OTOH, we also have a social compact with one another to keep people from falling into beggary or starvation. I am for payng taxes to ensure that citizens have access to health care. However, I also don’t want to subsidize able-bodied leeches on the system who want the rest of us to pay for them permanently.[/QUOTE]
Nobody wishes to support leeches. That is why I would support a support a cradle-to-grave welfare system if it were means tested. But everybody ought to get more than basic healthcare. Somebody has to pay for it, yes. But I suggest that it would cost less to socialize health and fulfill our contract to society than the system we have now. Cost less per person. And provide greater care for everybody. Right now we do have people falling into beggary and starvation (and/or close to it). It just ain’t right.
I do see what you are saying and understand that you have no desire to be ripped off. But I can never support a system that allows the poor to die younger, and in pain, simply because they cannot afford better care. I can never support a system that denies equal access to education based on income. Such a system speaks only of elitism - and discrimination.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!!! I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine, big time. You want to know why the cost of health insurance is going up? Aside from the cost increases on the supply side due to spiraling litigation cost, the main factor in spiraling health insurance costs is that people are demanding that HI be an entitlement program, not insurance. I am so sick of people who want, want, want, but don’t want to pay. Why should insurance pay for cosmetic surgery or fertility treatments, Viagra and elective abortions? It shouldn’t. Yet people demand all that and more, often times by making their state legislature mandate the coverage, and then they scream like wounded cats when the bill arrives. You want to solve the insurance problem in this country? The answer is not to demand or mandate more coverage, the answer is to limit coverage. Insurance should do one thing: it should pay for your recovery if you get sick. Think of how much your car insurance would be if it paid for oil changes, new tires and paint jobs. Why people can’t make the logical leap that Health Insurance is the same deal is beyond me.
Now that that’s off my chest, DD, where are you located? (what state) I might be able to find something to help in your situation. (as you might guess, Health Insurance is what I do) Unless you’re in Md, I’m not licensed to sell you anything, so I’m not trying to drum up business, just help.
Two things. I am not suggesting insurance at all. I am suggesting doing away with insurance completely in favor of nationalized healthcare.
Cosmetic surgery etc would be paid out of pocket.
But, the insurance companies would be out of fucking business. No loss.
No loss indeed, except to your and my and everyone else’s pocketbook. Hello 10-20% tax hike! All of you calling for socialized medicine do realize that as a general rule, countries that have it pay much higher taxes than we do, right? If that’s fine with you, than I think it’s great that you’re willing to put your money where your mouth is, I’m just distressed that you want to force me to put mine there too. For what it’s gonna cost you in taxes, you could have just bought the damn insurance in the first place.