I’ve been reading about a couple incidents relating to Waymo somehow sensing firearms in their vehicles. It’s possible it sensed bad behavior by passenger who were carrying forearms, not the firearms themselves. I’ve also read police departments have access to a function that allows the Waymo to stop and create access for law enforcement. Anyone have any information on this?
Googling, the terms of service prohibit real or toy firearms. In one case I found, their staff observed via the cameras the passenger carrying something that appeared to be a firearm.
It’s probably just a function of the company contacting law enforcement, not the police having control of it.
Having a firearm in a “posted” business is a very petty offense in many jurisdictions, usually involving asking the violator to leave first, and enforcement action not taken until after they refuse.
But I don’t know the laws of all 50 states.
Carrying is a trespass in most states, meaning you have zero consequences but may be asked to leave, and have consequences if you refuse or return later. This may vary if signs are posted. States where this isn’t the case include the fake yeehaw state Texas, which has explicit signage requirements.
The stories where this has happened include this poorly researched LA Times story about “young people” detained for a “ghost gun” which is 1) illegal under CA law, 2) not a specifically-detectable thing, so 3) some details are missing. “Bad behavior” was probably a contributing factor in further investigation of video footage.
Moderator Note
Let’s avoid political jabs in FQ, please.
“The company pulled the car over after detecting a violation of our terms of service involving a firearm,” a Waymo spokesperson told the Los Angeles Times. The company alerted emergency services and “cooperated fully” with police, the spokesperson said.
Authorities described the AR-style weapon as a “ghost gun,” a firearm that lacks a serial number, making it difficult for law enforcement to trace.
Both minor passengers—a boy and a girl—were arrested for illegal firearm possession and booked into San Francisco’s Juvenile Justice Center.
However, what happens if the rider is a police officer?
Never mind.
“After detecting” does not explain things. Presumably the simplest explanation is they use the internal camera for the monitors to check out riders, either (a) always, (b) occasionally or randomly, or (c) if there’s an issue. Presumably younger riders (especially under-age) raises a flag, although how they would know is an interesting question. It suggests the human-monitor-to-vehicle ratio is low enough to afford the time for checks.
They might use A.I. to spot things that look like firearms, and then have a human take a look.
Do we know if such detecting and immediate “volunteering” of information to the police was a condition needed for Waymo to operate legally?
According to this article Waymo Driverless Taxis Ban Firearms, Stop Rides for Armed Passengers | DownRange | DownRange " Waymo prohibits all weapons inside its autonomous taxi fleet and actively detects firearms using onboard sensors, stopping rides and summoning police when a gun is identified. The policy went into effect across the company’s operating markets, marking the first major rideshare firearms prohibition backed by automated enforcement. Recent incidents confirm Waymo halts service mid-trip and contacts local law enforcement upon detection." Additionally, “The policy applies equally to licensed carry and unlicensed possession, making the service incompatible with daily carry in covered markets.” I can see this being a problem in “Open Carry” cities and states.
Not intended to hit on any contemporary politics at all! but I apologize. Not FQ appropriate for sure.
I’ve only ridden Waymo once (within the last month), in AZ where firearm detection is probably much less popular than the other place I’ve seen them, San Francisco. IIRC there’s a sign saying you may be recorded, but I doubt/don’t remember any specifics about detection of anything. And never saw the contract fine print because it wasn’t my Waymo account. Uber notably has a no-firearms policy, but the high profile cases have been enforcement on the driver rather than the passenger.
So what happens when a firearm is detected and police are called?
Are the passengers free to go or are they locked In until the cops arrive?
As previously mentioned, in many states posting has no force of law. If the offender is willing to leave there is no foul.
This sounds like overkill and antigun hysteria to me.
[Moderating]
Whether this is “overkill” or “hysteria” are not questions for FQ.
The rest of that post is fine, though.
No word on if it is a police officer.
And that concerns me. Whether or not a company likes open carry or concealed carry is besides the point. A Police Officer (usually) MUST carry their weapon. So, how does Waymo handle this?
Not off duty you don’t. But it depends on department policy. And the departments that do require it rarely require it if you’re outside your jurisdiction.
Off-topic, hidden
I see much bigger problems with this (automated detection of “bad” people). A lot of stuff starts off getting the right “bad people”, and then suddenly another party is in charge and the definition of “bad” is changed.
Do any of you think the current administration wouldn’t use their definition of “bad” to stop undesirables going to the polls if they could? If they can detect a firearm visually, they can easily detect a shirt for the “wrong” candidate, or other characteristics they oppose.
Giving huge corporations the authority to define “good” and “evil” and then carry out arrests on their own scares the hell out of me. This will be misused, the only question is when.
Whereas I am wondering how voluntary this procedure is in the first place. Would they have gotten legal permission to operate if they did not have it in place?
What possible tech could they use - putting a metal detector loop around the doors is pretty unreliable, and too many false positives. Explosive residue detection? Not sure how much chemicals like nitrates bullets exude, and that would mean people fresh off the firing range regularly get pulled over. The simplest, as suggested, is AI looking for gun patterns and leaving it to a human operator to check the camera (current and recoded “flagged” view) to make the call.
The moral presumably is “don’t wave your gun”.
Off-topic, hidden
I often wonder what businesses that post “no weapons” signs think they are going to accomplish.
A person who is intending to commit armed robbery (a serious felony) is not going to be deterred by a sign that has little to no consequences if disobeyed.
A person who is intending to commit a mass shooting (a horrific felony) is not going to be deterred by a sign that has little to no consequences if disobeyed.
So who are those policies aimed at?
In my state posting on your business puts the liability of safety upon the business. Which is why few post.