Wayward teen vs. military enlistment

In My Humble Opinion
61

[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl]
The kindness I have been a recipient of on the Dope just about makes me cry. It’s good to know I’m not alone and have people to share my struggles with even if only anonymously. It’s harder to do it face-to-face because it feels so embarrassing and sometimes it makes people squirm. I guess that’s why I tend to be so private.

But how can I really express my thanks to have this outlet with people like you guys?

hugs for everyone :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely not alone! My heart is going out to you. I don’t have time now to read the rest of this thread, but I wanted you to know, you are most decidedly part of a sisterhood here. I have been where you are, and to some degree still am. My son, who is now 21, completed the first half of his basic training between his junior and senior year of high school. It was the last responsible thing he did. He ended up blowing off the second half the next summer, dropped out of high school, got arrested, you name it. Apparently he is now considering the military again (he attained his GED). I can’t say much because I don’t want the impression that I am forcing the issue. He is maturing at a snail’s pace and I truly think military would be good for him as he thrives under structure.

Keep us posted. PM me if you ever need a good word.

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Brown Eyed Girl - Let me tell you about one of my sisters. She got pregnant by the first guy she slept with (she was out of high school). She married him. She got pregnant a second time, at which time he left and never came back. My parents took her in, she had the second baby. She continued to live with my parents, occassionally working, but job didn’t last all that long. When my folks got tired of having a second family in the house, they bought her a house. She worked, more or less, at two-bit jobs and didn’t maintain the house, which started to go to ruin. My sister sponged off her twin, she sponged off my parents, she sponged off me. The years went by and her kids grew up, meanwhile my sister didn’t. She applied for credit in the kids names as soon as she could and trashed their credit before they had a chance to have a start in an adult life. My sister is verging on 50 years old, and my mother decides that now that my father’s dead, she’s tired of flushing her retirement money down the toilet. She sold the house my sister was living at for a loss. It was almost uninhabitable - in fact, unbeknownst to everyone, my sister was living at a weekly motel rental because she couldn’t live in the house. Suddenly my sister is expected to grow up.

Your instinct is that by being unconditionally supportive you’re guiding your child live up to his potential. What you’re doing is infantalizing him until he can’t live as an adult. Growing up happens to us all. Whether it’s at 18 or at 50 is up to you.

StG

63

[QUOTE=SSG Schwartz]
Really, do you think all Soldiers blindly follow the leaders and agree with the Commander in Chief on everything? …
[/quote]

Of course I don’t. They are professionals who will fight for any cause they are sent to, be it a just one, or an evil one. And that’s the whole point.

Yes.

The only valid reason to fight is because you believe in the justness of the fight. A moral person will take a stand against evil, put his own life on the line to bring about its destruction. Anyone who does this is a hero.

On the other hand, if you fight for the “career opportunities”, i.e. money, that it provides, then you are nothing more than a hired thug.

As for the slogans “serving your country” and “respect for the nation” well yeah, I’m all for that. But that isn’t what the military does, is it? You, sir, are not employed by “your country.” You are employed by politicians. You are serving George Bush. That is different.
And in all sincerity I think that this war is against the interests of the USA. Every day you fight it the USA suffers a little more damage. Don’t you agree?

You, sir, Mr Military Recruiter, are harmful to the country. Every time you (or one of your recruitment colleages) persuades a kid to go to Iraq, and the kid gets his damn fool head blown off, you do a bit of harm to your nation. You are serving George Bush by doing that. You are not serving your country, nor honouring it.

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And how does this relate to the OP? Seriously, take it to the pit or shut up.

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[QUOTE=dangermom]
Also, Peter, you’re the only one reading all that stuff into this thread.
[/QUOTE]

All what stuff?

66

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
Of course I don’t. They are professionals who will fight for any cause they are sent to, be it a just one, or an evil one. And that’s the whole point.

Yes.

The only valid reason to fight is because you believe in the justness of the fight. A moral person will take a stand against evil, put his own life on the line to bring about its destruction. Anyone who does this is a hero.

On the other hand, if you fight for the “career opportunities”, i.e. money, that it provides, then you are nothing more than a hired thug.

As for the slogans “serving your country” and “respect for the nation” well yeah, I’m all for that. But that isn’t what the military does, is it? You, sir, are not employed by “your country.” You are employed by politicians. You are serving George Bush. That is different.
And in all sincerity I think that this war is against the interests of the USA. Every day you fight it the USA suffers a little more damage. Don’t you agree?

You, sir, Mr Military Recruiter, are harmful to the country. Every time you (or one of your recruitment colleages) persuades a kid to go to Iraq, and the kid gets his damn fool head blown off, you do a bit of harm to your nation. You are serving George Bush by doing that. You are not serving your country, nor honouring it.
[/QUOTE]

Congratulations on completing your massive dump on my thread. There’s only one place for this sewage.

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[QUOTE=gravitycrash]
And how does this relate to the OP? .
[/QUOTE]

Just that the military is not for everyone. Some people are willing to fight for an unjust cause, and they may prosper in the military. Other people have a serious moral objection to fighting for an unjust cause. And based on BEG’s comments, her son is one of them.

Given his moral stance, attempting to persuade him to enlist is a bad idea.

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[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl]
Congratulations on completing your massive dump on my thread. There’s only one place for this sewage.
[/QUOTE]

Dump on your thread? Jeez.

Look, you asked for opinions on whether a military enlistment would help your son. It’s plain that you wanted to hear “yes.”

But I’ve given you a contrary opinion. I’ve told you why I don’t think a military career would be beneficial to your son. I’m sorry that’s not what you want to hear, but it’s my opinion.

If you don’t like someone’s opinion contradicting yours then you are on the wrong message board.

69

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
Just that the military is not for everyone.
[/QUOTE]
Just? Just this? Why then didn’t you say that instead of being so rude?

70

[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
But I’ve given you a contrary opinion. I’ve told you why I don’t think a military career would be beneficial to your son. I’m sorry that’s not what you want to hear, but it’s my opinion.

If you don’t like someone’s opinion contradicting yours then you are on the wrong message board.
[/QUOTE]
Pointing out that there’s a downside to military service, ie. you can get your ass shot off, isn’t a contrary opinion – it’s a visit to Obviousville.

I don’t think anyone on SDMB actually likes the Iraq war, but that has nothing to do with **BEG’s ** original question. Of course everyone knows that military service carries certain inherent risks; training accidents, carelessness and poorly-maintained equipment claim a handful of lives every year. That’s not the point. The point is that military service can and usually does teach purposeless and lost young people how to respect themselves and others and how to work as part of a larger team to achieve a common good. If you thought there was no chance of that ever happening, or if your personal experience in the military was that it rarely happened that way, that would be a contrary opinion. Which raises the question; What was your personal experience in the military?

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Your son sounds a lot like me. I joined, and it turned out pretty good for me. Stand up taller, better physical shape, more assertive, look people in the eye, all that jazz. It’s not a non-stop joy ride, and I have been dicked over a few times (even by the recruiter), but overall my main regret is not joining sooner. Staff Sergeant Schwartz is a good guy and so is billyb0b.

Peter Morris is right, at least at one point: the military is not for everyone. Sometimes they just can’t hack it. Sometimes it’s just a different personality mixture, or they don’t get what they wanted out of the experience. I’ve also known a lot of fuck ups who continue to be fuck ups until it’s time for the military to fuck them up. Good riddance to them, and it’s people like that who treat the military as their own rehab program, or think military lifestyle = nonstop drunken dumbassitude, that ruin it for everyone else. But for some it can be the best decision you ever make in your life.

[QUOTE=Lemur866]
If he doesn’t even have a GED yet, I don’t think he’ll be able to enlist. I suppose if you sicced a recruiter on him, you could make it the recruiter’s job to hound him into getting getting the GED. Remember, recruiters are doing a good job if they get 2 or 3 recruits a month, so they’ll bust their ass if there’s any chance he can make it.
[/QUOTE]

SSGSchwartz pretty much covered this, but his recruiter will work with him to get that GED or diploma.

[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl]
Also, why would a teenager think the Air Force is the only branch of military worth considering? I don’t think he believes he’s would get to fly, but he seems to think the USAF is the “best” of the branches
[/QUOTE]

Because it’s the “easiest”, most civilian, highest quality of life, and requires the least amount of sacrifice. That is my (cynical) guess. As much as I dog the Chair Force (ho ho), it is a good branch that serves a very important role.

The Air Force is the way it is because it has to be. Nobody’s digging trenches or crammed inside tin cans; just about everybody in there, if not some generic support role, is a mechanic or engineer or government-sponsored brainiac in some form or another. Once someone receives their free training and serves out their four or six year commitment they’re likely to find some real cushy jobs on the outside, so a lot of effort in retention is put in maintaining a high quality of life. That’s why you’ll find Dorms (not barracks!), every airman his own room, in campuses that are overall nicer than some Marine Gunnies might stay in their entire lives even on vacation. Shoot, their space program is bigger in some ways than NASA’s.

I’ll still dog those cake eating zoomies 'til the day I die, but off the record they’re alright.

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
The other person is my little brother. He signed up for the Marine Corps when there wasn’t any war going on. My mother pressured him in a big way because his hopes were falling apart quickly. After he signed the papers, he decided he didn’t want to enlist after all. Bad move. He failed to show up for all kinds of things and the Marine Military Police actually showed up at our house one day based one my mother’s arrangements. Rifles in hand, they woke him up from a dead sleep early one morning, gave him 5 minutes to grab essentials and he was on a plane to San Diego by mid day. He got stationed in Japan and it was the best thing that ever happened to him. Today, he is solidly middle class and an awesome father and husband. Sometimes it takes shock treatment to correct destructive behavior of any sort and the military is a good way to do that.
[/QUOTE]

That is hardcore.

Most people have their own enlistment stories, some more colorful than others, but for what it’s worth his is the “best” I’ve heard. Glad to hear it was all for the positive in the end.

What other sorts of things is he interested in? Some of the stuff you mentioned may translate to Mass Communications Specialist (formerly Journalist rating).

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[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
Pointing out that there’s a downside to military service, ie. you can get your ass shot off, isn’t a contrary opinion – it’s a visit to Obviousville.
[/quote]

Except, of course, that isn’t the objection that I raised. In fact it’s a pretty big strawman. My objection is totally different.

On the contrary, it is directly relevant.

The point is that the OP has discussed the matter of military service with her son. Her son has expressed an ethical objection to the war in Iraq.

Note that, because it’s important. It isn’t that he’s afraid of getting his ass shot off. It’s because he has an objection based on moral principal.

Some people suggest that he should set aside his personal feelings, and go anyway, because it will give him a higher salary than a McJob. Well, yes, certainly it will do that. But what else will it do for him? It will teach him to be a hypocrite. It will teach him to sell out. It will teach him to betray his principles. It will teach him to pursue personal gain at the expense of personal integrity.

I don’t think that military service will make him a better person. Whatever problems he’s having at the moment, I can’t see them being helped by asking him to betray his principles.

73

First, I’ll admit to committing a Cardinal Sin and not reading the whole thread. Here goes anyway:

I dropped out of school and joined the Air Force a few days after I turned 17. Got a GED in there, and entered college after my four years of service was over. Now I’m an oddity, a HS dropout with a college degree.

Joining the military then was one of the best things I ever did. It was a good place to grow up, and after four years of working I was more ready to be serious about school.

I’m not sure that they will take dropouts any more, my story is from a long time ago. Good luck to your son. I hope it works out.

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[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
Some people suggest that he should set aside his personal feelings, and go anyway, because it will give him a higher salary than a McJob. Well, yes, certainly it will do that. But what else will it do for him? It will teach him to be a hypocrite. It will teach him to sell out. It will teach him to betray his principles. It will teach him to pursue personal gain at the expense of personal integrity.

I don’t think that military service will make him a better person. Whatever problems he’s having at the moment, I can’t see them being helped by asking him to betray his principles.
[/QUOTE]
My own son disagrees with the “Iraq policy,” but that didn’t prevent him from enlisting in the Navy and it won’t prevent him from deploying to Bahrain next month in support of the guys in Iraq. He’s proud to serve and intellectual enough to separate his personal feelings from his need for training and a salary and his commitment to serve. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s professionalism. In fact, it just might be a huge character builder for the lad to serve and do well in an organization that is being required to perform a mission that almost no one supports any more. If the rest of us can love the troops while hating the war, I don’t see why **BEG’s ** son can’t learn the same distinction.

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Sunrazor, I’m sure he can. He’s never expressed any disrespect whatsoever towards military personnel or vets. He’s simply not a Bush fan and holds the very common belief that we went into Iraq for all the wrong reasons and we don’t belong there. I’ll be sure to remind him, if nothing else, to register to vote! :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Peter Morris]
The point is that the OP has discussed the matter of military service with her son. Her son has expressed an ethical objection to the war in Iraq.
[/QUOTE]

Despite the fact that it’s been pointed out several times in numerous threads that military service does not equal solely serving in Iraq, you seem to think that it does. There are plenty of servicemen and women who never set foot in Iraq, so IMHO that’s a lousy reason to rule out every other opportunity military enlistment offers.

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[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
My own son disagrees with the “Iraq policy,” but that didn’t prevent him from enlisting in the Navy and it won’t prevent him from deploying to Bahrain next month in support of the guys in Iraq. He’s proud to serve and intellectual enough to separate his personal feelings from his need for training and a salary and his commitment to serve. That’s not hypocrisy, that’s professionalism..
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you would care to come to this thread and explain why I should respect him for that.