She isn’t forcing him into the military. She can’t. He’s an adult. Comparing that to a draft is… well I can think of a few words but lets just go with wrong.
The only experience I have with the Job Corps is arresting those who are living at the nearest one. I’m sure it works for some but I have not seen much to recommend it.
If it comes to that, the draft didn’t exactly force preople into the military. It just gave them the choice between military service or criminal prosecution. Ali, for example, chose prosecution, cause no Viet Cong ever called him a nigger.
Well, she has decided that this is the only option for her son, and is putting extreme pressure on him to comply with her decision. But she is making remarks like, he can’t be here, he’s only got one more month, she can’t legally refuse responsibility for a 17 year old, and so on. Seems to me that she’s implying that her responsibility ends onm his 18th birthday. After that, it’s join up or li8ve on the streets. No, she can’t force him to join. But she can make threats.
You find it perfectly ordinary for a kid to drop out of school and don’t think I should object to that?
Incidentally, if he enlists in the military it will be his choice, but I am encouraging him looking into based on what the military has to offer a young man of limited means and ambitions.
Yes, it’s perfectly ordinary. Many kids fails school. Fact of life. We can’t all be scholars.
So, he’s applying for jobs right now. Please explain what is your objection to that. Why don’t you encourage him to do that?
You note that your husband delivered pizza before enlistment. Why not let your son deliver pizza for a while? What’s your objection to that?
It seems that the military is the ONLY job you want for him, and wont accept anything else.
And seriously, you haven’t said what your son is doing that is so terrible.
A parent’s job is to instill wisdom in their kids and encourage them to make good decisions. I had no idea what I was doing when I was 17 and my stepfather arranged for me to go to Tulane on a full scholarship. I would never have figured out how to do that on my own and might still be in the town of 1,300 people that I grew up in if not for that. My brother is very smart but hates academic things in particular. My mother arranged for him to go into the Marines and it worked out great as well. My youngest brother actually got expelled from high school for one of those zero tolerance nightmare stories that you read about. It was 100% bogus but she just put him in community college for what would have been his senior year of high school. After a series of wise decisions, he has a bachelor’s degree from LSU and graduated in December.
If parents can’t put wise pressure on their kids, I don’t know who can. A 17 year old is not an adult even though they may be technically approaching that point. Still 18 year olds are generally not world savvy either. They haven’t been around enough to know how the world works. I am 34 and my family still puts pressure on me for some critical things. I don’t have to take the advice but I would be stupid not to listen to people twice as old as me who have dealt with the same things.
If I let my daughters do what they wanted, they would just sit around eating candy and watching Spongebob Squarepants all day. A parent’s job is to guide and encourage at differing levels of force depending on the issue at hand.
I think I’ll just walk away shaking my head.
Without going into too much detail about my son’s issues (because I prefer not to), I think if you read my posts again you might get an inkling of why I can’t have my son in our house while he is in his current mode of operation.
I’m not sure how you got the idea that my sole recommendation to him is the military. It’s not and I have been looking for some type of program that would work out him for some time now. Why does it have to be a “program”? Because he needs structure and discipline that he can provide for himself. Evidently, that I can’t provide either based on the fact that he’s rejected parental authority of any kind.
Why do I want that so badly for him? Because he has dreams and he’s my kid and I want a better life for him. I want him to have options later on down the road because he built his foundation now. Why should I accept that my bright kid who scores so well on tests but won’t sit down and write a paper drops out of school because he might be happier delivering pizzas? If you knew my kid, you’d know he doesn’t want to deliver pizzas. He doesn’t want a McJob. He wants to go to college. He wants his dream job. All I’m trying to do is encourage to make the path to those things smoother. It’s not going to be easier to accomplish if he drops out of school. Maybe it’s still possible with a GED, but he’s just not building a foundation, he’s building habits. When the going gets tough and the kid quits, the kid’s chance of success is bottoming out. You can’t expect that things will be different because you’re in college now. You have to make things different. That takes discipline. Discipline is not dropping out of school with just a few credits to go because the idea of being in school after the 18th birthday doesn’t appeal to you.
Some people have to graduate from the School of Hard Knocks before they can start building their lives. Some kids don’t have the privilege of a family who cares enough to not continue to enable the defeating behaviors. I wish and every day I still hope my kid is not the one in the first sentence. But, damn it, I want him to achieve his dreams some day and I’ll keep badgering him about going back to school every day which IS my FIRST CHOICE. And if that doesn’t work out, I’m going to recommend him look at any other alternative that offers him some training. That includes the military, Job Corps or whatever else I can find.
It’s not that I MUST have him in the military, and I don’t know where you got that idea. But I would like to see this kid plan ahead some. I think I already mentioned that my non-negotiable rule for coming back to this house is to go to school (not the military) every day. He has decided he cannot abide by that rule. He is making choices and I don’t think it’s out of line to say that they are very poor ones.
Peter Morris What the hell are you going on about? Did you even read this thread? wow.
On the contrary, please do tell us what your son’s issues are. You describe him as wayward. Please tell us what form his waywardness takes.
So far you’ve told us that he failed to take out the trash.
Is that it? Or do you have anything else.
I’m serious here. Perhaps if you told us what your son is doing wrong we’d be in a better position to give you advice.
From your posts.
I’ll go further than that. Go look at your first post in the thread. Not only do you want him in the military. You have picked out the NAVY specifically for him. And you are upset by his comments that the Air Force would be better.
No, you don’t want him in the air force, you want him in the Navy.
Really, your whole theme in this thread has been asking advice about how to force your son to join the military. You are not interested in anything else.
As a first job straight out of school, its fine. Deliver pizzas for a few months, then move
to a better job based on a recommendation from his boss at the pizza place. That’s what your husband did.
It’s possible that after a few months delivering pizza he’ll decide of his own choice to join the military. Just like your husband. Or he might go down some other path.
Or maybe its YOU that objects to it. So, your husband delivered pizza for a while, then he joined the military. You think your son should cut out the pizza part and proceed straight to military.
Maybe your husband enjoyed that, but it doesn’t follow that it’s right for your son.
I got that idea from your thread title, and your comments in your posts.
From what you’ve told us, he doesn’t like school, and wants to get a job instead. Why won’t you support him in this?
So, instead of going to school, he delivers pizzas. That’s good honest work. Can he live under your roof as a pizza deliverer?
Really, do you think all Soldiers blindly follow the leaders and agree with the Commander in Chief on everything? Do you really think that all troops enlist in the Military to fight wars? Do you really believe that all persons who have joined the Uniformed Services since 20010911 only joined because they fully support the war in Iraq, or fully support the war in Afghanistan?
Let’s take an example, based upon your position. Say a Soldier has 19 years in when a war he doesn’t agree with begins. Should he be allowed to refuse to serve? Should we not have a standing Army because you don’t agree with the current operations?
Do you really, and I ask this sincerely, believe that Service to Country, that Respect for our Nation, and career opportunities presented by Military service should be shunned because you don’t agree with the current missions of US troops?
[Sorry for the hi-jack]
SSG Schwartz
BEG, since he isn’t interested in Job Corps or the military and from what I’ve gotten from your posts, his grades likely aren’t good enough to get into college, even if it was in the budget, what about trade school?
Not everyone is cut out for jobs that require college. Does he have any mechanical or construction interests? I know what auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, et al make…and it’s nothing to sneeze at! He likely would qualify for student loans to cover a large share of the expenses and could work in a low level job in his field while going to school (around here, a lot of those begin at considerably more than flipping burgers).
Just a thought.
I already described his waywardness in as great of detail that I care to. This thread is not about debating the degree of his waywardness. If you read my posts again (I did), you’ll note I already indicated the extent of it. But here, I’ll give you a hand:
Nope. You’ve just decided to ignore most of what I have said.
Actually, I received the information I was looking for from people who were more interested in discussing my actual questions than debating whether I’m overreacting to my son’s problems. I thank our doper recruiters who provided me information via PM. It turns out his problems are serious enough that it looks like he would be disqualified from military service at this time. It is not an option.
Yes, I would rather see my son serving in the military than failing to support himself and prepare for his future. I indicated that I thought the Navy might be better fit than the Air Force as he is interested in oceanic studies. The Navy obviously has positions that put in on, in, or near the ocean. I was also under the impression that he would have a much more difficult time achieving qualifications in a more selective branch and I was suggesting a branch that looked somewhat easier to access.
There’s nothing in my posts indicating that I intended to force him into anything. You’re spinning this all on your own. As I said before, it’s not even very likely that I could succeed at that. I’m simply, again, trying to convince him to CONSIDER his options. He makes his own choices, I would like him make better, more informed choices. It seems to be a moot point now, since we’ve ruled out military service as a viable option.
Oh, and the Job Corps is not military service, but having been suggested in this thread as an option, it’s something I also looked into and discussed with my son. So, you’re just plain wrong.
Actually, my husband delivered pizzas during his military service. My point was that it was the military that provided him trade skills that ended up supporting his family, not the pizza delivery. The pizza delivery simply gave him extra pay to meet his financial obligations. The difference between my son and my husband at that age was that he followed the house rules, went to school and worked to support himself. When he determined that school wasn’t working out for him, he chose the military to prepare him for a better future. Why is that so difficult to understand?
If you can figure out a way to deliver pizzas without a car then you’re savvier than my son. He says he’s applied for several retail and food service openings and has yet to receive one call back. He is hitting a wall when he calls back himself to inquire about the openings. His employment options are minimal at this point and he cannot support himself. He refuses to go to the school he’s enrolled in that doesn’t cost him anything. He refuses to consider any other option than to continue his job search which isn’t going well at all. You got any other ideas? It’s easy to say he can get a job, but when you don’t have a lot to offer employers, it’s not so easy to get one. He may have to consider lowering his standards considerably.
This is not the Pit, so I really can’t tell you what I think you’re being, but I will say I think you entirely missed the point of my OP.
And a good one. Before we enrolled him in the charter school that he’s currently not attending, we looked into trade schools. It might be something to again consider at this time.
Unfortunately, I think, for the time being, he’s just not interested in school at all. Perhaps some further pavement pounding, continuing to face the inability to support himself, and running out of friends willing to carry him will convince him otherwise.
The sad thing is that our whole family is dying to see him make some good choices and standing by waiting for the best opportunity to give him a boost. But nobody wants to enable his poor choices anymore. I just found out his grandparents had been planning to give him a graduation gift of a trip to Hawaii, but that’s been put on hold because he, well, isn’t going to graduate. He was supposed to get to enjoy his post-graduation summer. We all wanted that. I hope he comes around because it’s so frustrating to see him flounder and he doesn’t realize that he’s fortunate to have so many people that do care and want desperately to help. Many of his classmates didn’t even have that. But, he’s turned his backs on us all. 
The input has been great and very much appreciated, guys! Thanks for letting me vent some, too.
Given an honest change of motivation, virtually anyone can get a 4 year college degree in the U.S. I already mentioned that my brother did it from a pretty good school after being flat-out expelled from high school. Many if not most colleges don’t have many admission standards at all. We aren’t talking about Harvard, Stanford, or MIT here but it serves the purpose just fine. Community colleges usually have open admission too. If someone really wants to go to a good college, they can enter the local community college system and then transfer to a 4 year school after the second year. That isn’t uncommon even for the really good state schools. There is no point in which your chances for a good 4 year degree are over and there are multiple ways to redeem yourself as long as you have enough self-discipline.
Well put. The self-discipline is critical and really what I’m hoping to encourage in him. That may be the one thing that really is holding him back. I do believe that if he had even a little bit of that, he’d still be going to school as he’s really very close to completion and intelligent enough to pass easily. The motivation to do so just isn’t there.
I know nothing whatsoever about military service, so I’m not going to weigh in on that part of the discussion, and I don’t have kids either. But as a college instructor I do know a bit about unmotivated 17- and 18-year-olds, so I’ll offer such advice as I have:
Take several big steps back. Don’t offer advice, don’t shop around for programs that will take him, don’t plead, don’t cajole, don’t make excuses for him, don’t bail him out if he gets into trouble. You’ve already made it clear that he has a place to stay if he follows the house rules; now it’s all on him. He’s an adult, or nearly so, and he needs to figure out on his own how the adult world works. If he’s as bright as you say he is, he’ll probably get it sooner rather than later, once this is no longer a power struggle between him and you. It sounds like this has become such an emotional tug of war that he’s firmly locked in I Don’t Wanna And You Can’t Make Me mode, and once you take the emotions and the struggle out of the equation, I think there’s a good chance he’ll be able to make more rational decisions than he’s been making. It may not happen right away; I think one of the toughest things for parents to accept is that some kids need to fail a bit before they can succeed. But that’s OK, because as other people have pointed out, there are plenty of second chances in life and plenty of paths that work (GEDs, community college, trade school – and, yes, military service). But whatever he chooses, he needs to come to it on his own, or at least feel like he has.
Probably easier said than done, but that’s my two cents, anyway.
I think Fretful has some really good thoughts. It seems to me that at this point, mentioning his future every day is going to backfire. Here’s hoping your son will get a clue and do a turnaround.
Also, Peter, you’re the only one reading all that stuff into this thread. Perhaps that should give you a hint that you are overreacting.
I’m skipping all of the other posts, so this may be redundant or it may be exactly opposed to what others have posted; nonetheless, here’s my completely biased opinion on the matter:
Enlistment could be the best thing that ever happened to an aimless kid. It also could be the worst.
If there are no serious problems – psychological issues, drug addiction, that kind of stuff – the military could provide a much-needed framework for self-discipline, pride and achievement. It was the best thing that ever happened to me and one of my brothers. The other two … well, they have some fond memories, but alcoholism and drug addiction make any kind of framework building iffy at best.
Enlistment actually could be harder on you than on your youngster, especially at first. Moms (and some dads) nowadays are shocked to learn that their darlings are not allowed any communication with the outside world during most of basic training. The reason for this should be pretty obvious; it’s hard to indoctrinate a young enlistee when he/she is constantly phoning home to complain about how hard life is in boot camp. Basic training works on the same two-part principle it’s always worked on – break the individual down until he/she has no self esteem or individuality whatsoever, then rebuild the person by teaching skills and instilling pride. Parents and other loved ones are invariably amazed at the transformation when they see the new soldier/sailor after basic training; they’d be horrified to see the whimpering mass of jelly that person was just a few weeks before.
Success after basic training then depends on the individual. If he has learned to use the skills and is willing to be part of the unit, he’ll succeed. If he refuses or is handicapped by substance abuse or psychological issues, he’ll be ostracized by the rest of the unit and be in worse shape than before.
I don’t know how you persuade an obstreperous youth to do what’s best for himself. If you figure that out, call me – we’ll make millions on the book rights.
Fretful, your advice is valuable and mirrors much of the advice I’ve been getting from various people involved with my son. I thank you for your input. It’s not that I’m trying to be bullheaded about this. Like you said, it’s hard to step aside and watch your children fail without intervening. It goes against your nature as a parent. Sometimes, it’s easier when the failure is doesn’t seem that serious and you know it’s going to be a safe and valuable learning experience. It’s much different when they’re at a critical turning point in their lives and the choices have long-lasting effects.
I’m trying to do what you’ve suggested and it’s taking me some time to step back slowly, while still making sure my son knows I’m there for him when he’s ready to make some positive changes. But I understand that I must make some very difficult decisions as well. My own mother told me to be clear with our expectations of him and stick to them. I want so much to protect him from hardship, but I no longer can without stunting his personal growth.
I’m listening and learning as I struggle through this process as a parent. I hope the second one goes a little easier because, damn, I had no idea it was this hard. When you hug your kids tonight, people, make sure they know you care more about them than they could ever imagine. I’m going to do that again the next opportunity I get. Then, I’m going to step aside and wait for my son to dig deep and find the man inside I know he can be.
BEG I am going through a very similar situation right now with my 18 year old step son. I don’t wish to go into details but here is how we felt about it. We gave him all the tools to be successful in school. Actually doing it was up to him. He failed despite his intelligence. Once he left school we were willing to help him as long as he was working towards some goal. His only rent was to help out a bit around the house. Things that would take less than an hour a day for the most part. Cheapest rent in the state. He wouldn’t do that either. Now his ass is out the door. Grandma is choosing to coodle him for the moment. As a parent it is our responsibility to provide support, not provide a place to squat and play video games all day. Once they reach adulthood they have to make adult choices. Sometimes the choices are wrong. You laid the foundation. What he chooses to do with it is up to him.