We are living in THE ugliest period in automobile history

I don’t like it at all, but it does come closest to what Fiveyearlurker was talking about, as far as I know. It does look a lot like the original, much moreso than things like the new Mustang or the recent T-bird, which gave passing nods to their heritage, but don’t really capture the look. There have been reports of people seeing the Challenger prototype who thought it was the original with updated features done during a restore.

Musclecars were never really my thing, although the Shelby Cobra’s not a bad little hunk of metal.

To those who feel the need to take the industry to task with regard to style, I’ve got this to say. The choices available to consumers today are so varied that a comparison to times gone by is unfair. The OP claims to be all big into car design, and then goes and uses a model that is not among the fondest of the Mustang line as an example. Thirty years ago, the only cars available were squared-off land barges with two or four doors. Today we have all form of body style and size to choose from: compact, midsize, large sedan, wagon, truck/SUV, and increasingly, the “crossover wagon”. To turn this into an argument for or against hybrids is also silly, as this will be a segment that will trickle down into a drivetrain viability for every vehicle regardless of its segment within the next ten years. We have more choices now than at any point in history, and unless your tastes lie in the excessively overweight, underpowered, oddly-proportioned, committee-engineered sticker appliqué rust buckets of the 70’s and 80’s, there’s little reason to argue against modern styling. Today’s stylists and engineers take so many more variables into account than they did back then. Everything from interior ergonomics to drivetrain packaging to platform versatility (for spanning multiple models from one core platform design) is examined to allow manufacturers to get best utilize their R&D dollar. Engineering partnerships exist between every major manufacturer. GM is in bed with Toyota (Pontiac’s Vibe is virtually identical to the Toyota Matrix), Ford is leveraging investments in both Mazda and Volvo (several new Ford designs have been spawned from Mazda platforms, including the next Focus), and Dodge has a long-standing relationship with Mitsubishi (all kinds of engine technologies in many models). And it doesn’t all go one way, either, because the Big 3 give these foreign makers a breadth of engineering resources to serve as the canvas for their partnerships. It’s really disgusting when people bicker about the nuances of the car industry that they clearly aren’t in the know about, because the car industry today is more a case of “you scratch my back, I scratch yours” than it ever has been.

I know I’m only repeating what’s been said, but thirty years ago, the domestic car industry didn’t know what to do to stay afloat. The beloved second-generation Mustangs so amorously mentioned in the OP were nearly killed off as victims of circumstance due to their size and weight. Ford wanted in on the muscle car wars and tried, rather unsuccessfully, to get the Mustang to go up against the likes of the other big-blocks: GTO, Cuda, Charger, 442, Duster, etc. It ended up looking more like the Torino (of Starsky & Hutch fame) than the first-gen Mustang because it had strayed from its original concept: a lightweight secretary’s car with some nice engine and tire packages. The only thing that really allowed the Mustang to survive 40 years was the [Mustang II](http://www.tocmp.com/pix/Ford/images/1975 Ford Mustang-II Models art_jpg.jpg), which was a hideous thing whose only purpose was to keep the name alive long enough to survive to the Fox body Mustangs of the 80’s. Despite the fact that domestic standards of quality design and engineering have improved significantly, those cars will never be dearly beloved classics to those who suffered through them. Those years just bring out deeply-engrained memories of suede mouse-fur interiors, vinyl tops, wood-grain paneling, body-colored wheels, poor fitments, bad fuel economy, terrible reliability, etc. Big cars got smaller and small cars got bigger while the whole industry became a proverbial landscape of squared-off, cost-cutting sameness. That’s how the imports got a shoe-in despite not being harbingers of any real style themselves. They were different and found a good place in a struggling market.

For the OP to use the second-gen Mustang as a reason to lambast Ford and Volkswagen for modern design practices is ridiculous. Not only must manufacturers abide by modern expectations for any number of design factors (safety, ergonomics, and efficiency chief among them) but they must strive more than ever to keep up with a product onslaught from import manufacturers which evolves very quickly. Model lifespan has decreased from 6-7 years to around 3-4 years to stay competitive and computers have certainly contributed to the decreased development time for new models. Today we have increased interior space, smaller exterior dimensions, and more convenient access to storage. Thirty years ago, we just got a trunk the size of a piano and yards of steel to wrap ourselves with. Sure, that era has a romanticism to it, but comparing the design process then to what it is now is almost apples and oranges. Back then, the market was slow to react and stubborn to change, and we had no computer-aided design to ease the process. This resulted in a lot of big design failures, much more so than you see today when the occasional “Pontiac Aztek” hits the market. Sure, taste is subjective, but designs today are “polarizing” because a love-it-or-hate-it design is better than a bland one. Sales numbers have proven that there is a market for something different like a Honda Element or VW Beetle whereas in years gone by, choices were limited to names like the Taurus, Impala/Lumina, Century/LeSabre, Intrepid, etc. and manufacturers are willing to take the risk in making product to suit the tastes of such buyers. As a result, the Big 3 are realizing that their run-of-the-mill sedans need a shot in the arm, and are beginning to consolidate dated designs into more modern ones. Nobody has pointed out that the very modern and sharp-looking Ford Fusion has supplanted the Taurus, or that GM has consolidated Buick’s lineup of four rather boring and dated sedans (Century, Regal, LeSabre, and Park Avenue) down to two very modern ones (LaCrosse and Lucerne). I’m big into the industry and automotive design, and yes, I like the idea of Buick as a premium mid-range luxury sedan for an affordable price (and I’m 26 years old), but even I couldn’t tell the difference between those four old and tired designs. Now THAT is what I would call poor design strategy, and GM knew it too. I am very impressed with how they’re really trying to revive Buick with fresh new products. They also have a new midsize SUV called the Enclave on the way which is incredibly handsome and a surefire shot across the nose at the Lexus RX330.

I’m also particularly impressed with the level of quality that Hyundai and Kia have been injecting into their products in just the last year or two. While most car enthusiasts would gladly attest to having zero interest in these brands (myself included), I can’t help but notice how they have notched up quality and style in this year’s models. The new Hyundai Santa Fe is very handsome and sleek compared with the old model, and the interior is truly a step above anything they’ve done so far. I sat in one and was floored. The interior quality and ergonomics have gone from keeping up with Honda and Toyota, to meeting and perhaps even surpassing them, although that is up to interpretation. Perhaps when you weigh the value for your dollar into the mix, you’ll see just how quickly the Koreans are encroaching on the Japanese. The new Kia Optima has a very sleek exterior and a tightly executed interior that caused me to do a double take. Design influences from the Nissan Altima and Infiniti G35 are obvious and well-received. Not sure what Kia’s slogan was before, but I think it changed recently to “The Power To Surprise” and I must say that it rings true to me. The Kia Amanti, however, is another story. It looks right at home in a market like China where European design influences are commonly ripped off as cheaply as possible, and without any shame. The results are often horrific. Most of them look like mid-term abortions of the cars they are trying to emulate. Just do a google image search on “Chinese cars” and have a look around. You’ll find more ugly cars than you ever knew existed. Their industry is plagued with proverbial hand-me-downs from other manufacturers’ markets and they are struggling to expand their industry both at home and abroad. It won’t be long before you find Chinese cars on our shores that will take up the budget end of the car-buying spectrum formerly occupied by the Korean manufacturers.

There are a few aspiring Chinese brands which are looking to come here. One of them, named Chery, has faced legal action from GM due to the name being so close to Chevy, when in fact they should be facing legal action from Nissan for copying the Maxima. They do, however, have a cute little design called the M14 which seems to be their attempt at a smaller, cuter Mitsubishi Eclipse, but the design thievery isn’t as blatant. Hell, the Chery logo looks like a design cocktail whose ingredients include Toyota, Lexus, and Infiniti. I only hope that China’s design standards continue to improve, or we’ll be facing a whole new onslaught of horrid-looking little communist knock-offs.

All the modern cars you just linked to could be vastly improved with a few minor style changes - the huge, thick door handles with big recessed circles underneath them, the gigantic logos, the cheapy plastic interiors with thick-ass steering wheels, huge shifters, and everything else looking overly clunky and bulky. The Buick midsize SUV you’re talking about looks exactly like all other sluglike, minivan-esque midsize SUVs (its resemblance to the Lexus is not a good thing, since the Lexus SUV you’re talking about looks like a minivan.)

You want a beautiful car?

I give you the TVR GT

Wow.

One of the meanest looking designs out there for sure.

The 70’s era muscle cars look like something a group of rednecks would have welded together in their backyard on a weekend. I think you had to grow up with them to appreciate them because I am barely too young and they just look tacky and engineered by clumsy brute force to me. They aren’t even all that fast and have poor handling by today’s standards even though that thuggish, coughing, inefficient engine up front seems to boast that it has everything. If I imagine myself sitting in one, I can almost feel the cheap-ass interior splitting around me and me succumbing to noise and air pollution in short order. The only attractive sports cars made back then were Corvettes and some of the roadsters.

There are plenty of attractive cars made today if your mind isn’t still pining for the Age of Aquarius. I have been impressed with the efforts the design efforts car companies have made in the last few years.

Is there a SINGLE person here who likes 70s muscle cars? Or is it seen as too tacky and “white-trash?” I’m getting the impression that every poster here despises them.

I’m not talking traditional shape. Low and swoopy is aerodynamic. Wedge-shaped is aerodynamic. And the Prius isn’t all that small–I’ve got a friend who has one and I’ve stood next to it–it struck me as a medium-size car. Small, but certainly not tiny.

As for fuel-efficient cars that are also nice to look at–I’m waiting for this, or something like it. Unfortunately I’ve got a long wait, since this one isn’t due out until 2009. I hope that the new Tesla Motors company (financed partially by the Google founders) puts out some nice looking cars, since I fear the Loremo won’t make it to the US. I have no problem with being green and driving a fuel efficient car, but I do have a problem with driving a butt-ugly car. If I’m going to spend the money on a new car, I’m going to drive something that I don’t cringe at every time I go out to the garage.

I am always surprised that somebody still does love them. When I was growing up, all my redneck friends really would get together on weekends and restore junked out muscle cars and pickup trucks from that era. I always thought those body panels were best reclaimed by nature in the woods somewhere but they argued differently. They got some of them working and they sure were loud and fumy. That may be one reason why some rednecks have trouble in the cognitive area. Carbon monoxide poisoning is bad on the brain. I always if they just didn’t have the money for a real car like a Corvette but they would get all pissed off and say I didn’t know what I was talking about but it turns out I really did.

Yeah.

Can’t really reason someone out of a position they don’t reason themselves into, but what the hell …

Larger door handles, steering wheels, and interior controls are part of this thing called ergonomics. The parts that the hand must touch and interact with are larger, thicker and easier to use because that is what we call progress in ergonomic design. Larger handles and steering wheels are easier for women and children to grip when wearing gloves, handling groceries, etc. And while you might be content with the classic chrome-plated thin-rimmed steering wheels of old, the research dollar, market feedback, and requirement for airbags has proven you wrong. Various metals and woods are also increasingly utilized in the cheapy plastic interiors you proclaim to be such an eyesore, and the chemical composition of those plastic textures is improving every year to achieve more tactile and pleasing results, but you’d clearly be much happier with the days of old when everything was sharp and chrome-plated to better impale occupants with during a vehicular crash. How about those old-style gloveboxes that could flip open in a front-end collision and dig into the knees, torso, or throat of a passenger being flung at the dash? And those steering wheels, they sure act as a wonderful cushion to plant your face or chest cavity into in a collision. I don’t suppose those annoying seat belt things are a chore for you as well? The large logos and ornate grill designs that you have no tolerance for are increasingly becoming design statements that speak to the identity of the brand, but you’d just as soon adorn every car with a one-inch plaque such as on the '71 Mustang which is too small to make out from any less than three feet away. The Buick Enclave will sell very well whereas the 71 Mustang never did because it is anticipating a burgeoning market niche … that of the so-called “sluglike minivan-esque” midsize SUV. If any manufacturer kept building their cars today the way they did in 1971, they would have ceased to be in business ages ago. Your interpretation of modern car designs is not going to influence the direction of the market because it is not what the market demands. Those cars aren’t built anymore for a laundry list of reasons, so why wallow in hatred for the evolution of industrial design and engineering standards? There are dozens of classic cars that I am totally in love with, but will never be built again for the same reasons. I don’t use that as an excuse to launch into an attack on modern design. Modern manufacturers do what they can to balance all these variables, and only recently have they begun to really embrace and draw upon design heritage in some of their models.

Argent, you accuse others of not liking 70’s era muscle cars and then turn around and ridicule good examples of modern car design. I didn’t state a dislike for 70’s era muscle cars, I was presenting a case as to why there is a stigma associated with them. I like car design from all eras, but there’s a big reason that it – like anything else – evolves. That reason is competition. If we lived in a world of no competition, we’d all still be driving a Ford Model T. It’s off-putting that you suggest something is wrong with progress, or with those who don’t share your taste when you turn around and proceed to insult theirs. Without progress, we’d have never seen a 1971 Mustang either …

Dude! GTO, Firebird, Chevelle, Charge Dodger, 'cuda… Oh sweet Og I love them giant inefficient hunks of steel (still don’t like Mustangs)
Old, semi-out of focus picture of my love - 1971 GTO. One of 517 made that year (455 HO, automatic tranny).
It REALLY makes me mad that so many new cars don’t get much better mileage than this thing did - 15 or so MPG, only 4 less than the minivan my wife drives now, and better than several of the giant trucks my cow-orkers own.

I just think that 1975-1985 cars were pure crap.

I still remember the first time I saw a '71 Mach 1 Mustang.
I was 19 years old a serious car freak. I was with my best buddy and we stopped for a burger. While eating we looked down the street at the Ford dealership (about a block away)
Holly Shit! What’s that? :::pointing:::
Beats me, but it is beautiful
So we finish our burgers and head over. Here is what we said when we got there.
Jesus Christ, this thing is HUGE
What did they do add three feet on to the original? It must weigh a ton. Or 2.
Yup, bet it is a slug too.

Sports cars are supposed to be small, light and agile.
The 71 Mach 1 was none of these.

Coupla well-argued posts there, anamnesis.

Anyway, for those who moan about the state of US vehicle design, there’s one thing we haven’t got to put up with that the Brits and Asians do: ladies and gentlemen, meet the Ssanyong Rodius.

I win. :eek:

OK, the Nomad excepted.

MUSCLE cars are supposed to be none of these. Early muscle cars were family sedans with the largest available engine crammed under the hood. They’re supposed to be big and powerful. No turning or braking, just GO BABY GO!

Vette, Ford Cobra, Ferrari = Sports Cars

Mustang, GTO, Chevelle, Camaro, Firebird = Muscle Cars.

“Forcoln”
“Linord”
“Foncold”
“Lincord”?

http://www.seriouswheels.com/1950-1959/1950-Mercury-Woody-Wagon-Yellow.htm

No wagons?

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/0201scc_2003_toyota_matrix_xrs/

None?

http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/1179

Never?

Legends are what you do with a car. In my case, the XRS has now eaten five BMW M3s in the last few months, and I don’t want to think about what else. Nothing short of a Vette can keep up with it at highway speeds and above, while staying a complete sleeper. It has the same engine as the Lotus Elise and Exige, with simply bizarre stats (http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html), and it’s much lighter than it looks.

The Mazdaspeed 3 is going to be better, even if it doesn’t make entire rooms vanish into it. And as for style? It’s there in both of them.

You could make a model and call it the Ford Theater. You could run ad copy that read, “The End of Lincoln”…

Not really arguing, in fact I agree with all but the part about turning and braking. What drove my comment was the OP in post #29

[bratty little kid]He Started it![/BLK] :slight_smile: