We don't need to 'understand the issues that led' to Tuesday's atrocities

There have been many points raised in this debate on both sides that have caused me a great deal of thought.

I would like to address some questions and points raised by Jodi

1. We are saying that at this point in time the specifics of why the terrorists did this are largely irrelevant. It doesn’t change that the attack took place. It does not justify or mitigate the attack. It doesn’t change our likely response to the attack. That is why at this point, explanations of motivations are largely irrelevant.

No doubt that those who perpetrated this attack should be brought to justice regardless of their motivation. In the short term, I can see a possible reason to understand their motivations however if it means we can tailor our response to be more acceptable to our reluctant allies and to more ambivalent observers in the region. This comes with two qualifications:

a) It assumes we don’t already know the appropriate way to conduct our response. That is, the terrorists can tell us something about the region we don’t already know.
b) It assumes we find it acceptable to tailor our response to their qualifications.

Personally I disagree with a), but without studying the terrorists’ motives we can’t be positive. I see no harm to have a few academics looking at the problem and advising the president.

2. As I have said, if our foreign policy is wrong, it should have been changed long ago. I didn’t hear you or anyone agitating very loudly for that, though. That is why it is very difficult to change foreign policy in the wake of terrorism – because it is almost impossible avoid the obvious implication that you are changing it because of the terrorism – that we have, in fact, given in.

I hadn’t really considered this before you originally brought it up, a very good point. Let’s assume that we think our foreign policy is wrong and it should be changed, if not, the point is moot. It would have been good if it was changed before, but we are often creatures of self-interest. The question then becomes when do we change it? I would say we must if we want to avoid many (not neccessarily all) attacks in the future this is even discounting it being the moral thing to do. How long before the causal link can be broken? How long do we let others live with this delay to protect ourselves?

Spiritus:

For my own part, my objection to going to war with any country is that so far as we know, no country is at war with us. A band of terrorists is. The fact that an unloved, generally unsupported dictatorship that runs Afghanistan has elected to offer this band “protection” (in the form of not finding him and handing him over) and are willing to put their people in harms way to do so, is not the fault of the people who will be harmed. Those people have absolutely no control of any kind, they are complete victims of their governement. So we will victimize them further and call it justice?

I have no problem at all with going after Bin Laden and his cohorts, specifically and directly. I want to see America prove how fucking great our system is by pputting it to use: I want this treated as what it is, a * crime *. What I would dearly love to see is a proper trial, with evidence and testimony, thoroughly proving the horrendous guilt of Bin Laden and his followers. Then I would like to lock them up forever. I know that execution would almost certainly be the actual punishment, but I think that lends itself to martyrdom. Better he and as many of his cohorts as possible should just rot in utter rage and impotence.

I don’t believe that bombing the shit out of Afghanistan is going to acheive anything resembling justice, and I have not (yet) found myself able to believe that the people of Afghanistan deserve to suffer any more than our people did. Didn’t we all learn that 2 wrongs do not add up to justice when we were children? I have yet to see a shred of evidence that bombing anyone stops any terrorism anywhere. Why would it do so now? It’s just a way to manufacture martyrs to the cause.

As for the idea that we need to understand the issues…well, I think others in this thread have argued that point beautifully, I won’t try to re-argue it. I direct you specifically to ** xenophon41 and matt-mcl **, who have both impressed me greatly with their reason and their ability to articulate a position I share.

stoid

STERRA –

I think it is safe to say that most everyone knows that, yes, I am mainly concerned about justice at this time.

This nicely encapsulates two fo the chief flaws in these arguments. First, it assumes, without any evidence, that we have made “mistakes” that are amenable to correction. Bin Laden is on record as telling his followers to kill Americans wherever they find us, without regard to age, gender, or innocence. This is because he believes that American society is corrupt and decadent and evil – the so-called “Great Satan.” So then what would you suggest we do to prevent that “mistake”? Stop being Americans? Stop being tolerant of others’ choices regarding religion, sexuality, and personal freedoms? Because those are the sort of “mistakes” we are talking about. Second, it assumes – insultingly, though I assume you meant no insult by it – that some “mistake” we made could “cause” them to kill 5500 people – as if anything we might have done could ever justify such a thing.

Damn right. Some choose to lie down, and some choose to stand up. It should be obvious which choice I would prefer. I see no justice to the victims in lying down. And as must be clear by now, I value justice over peace.

CRANKY –

No. Then we put him on trial – if not here, then in an international court. Justice is not revenge, nor is it a show of strength for its own sake. But he MUST be brought to justice; he cannot be allowed to continue to hide in Afghanistan and to underwrite such plans as this. Assuming he is ultimately responsible for 9/11, which it appears he is, then he must be neutralized, either by imprisonment or by death. And if they will not hand him over, then we must go and get him.

I hope that none of the military response is to “show our might”. Some of the response might be to make a point about the resolve of the U.S. to respond to terrorism. (Isn’t “part” of why we jail criminals to “make a point” towards those contemplating similar actions?). In your specific case…I guess I would need to know more info…I haven’t heard a firm number of the number of countries that supported or harbored the terrorists involved in this…that information gathering appears to be what is happening now…for example. I’ve heard conflicting reports about whether Iraw was involved.

I note that the Taliban has been harboring bin-Laden, even AFTER he destroyed the USS Cole, and destroyed the embassies in Africa. I can’t imagine giving them a total pass, just for turning him over…

BEAGLEDAVE’s post brings up another thing in my mind, though this might deserve a different thread:

Bin Laden was responsible for the attack on the embassies, and we basically gave him, and Afghanistan, a pass on it. He was responsible for the attack on the USS Cole, and we gave them both another one. Now he has orchestrated an unthinkable act of terror that has left many thousands dead.

When is enough enough for you guys? And if you’re ever so concerned about all those innocent folk in Afghanistan, how come no one is agitating for us to go in and remove the Taliban boot from their collective neck? That might be one result of military action, you know; it’s not as if the Taliban enjoys universal support, either in Afghanistan or out of it. It seems to me that many people who hesitate to drop a bomb on an Afghani woman’s head have thus far not hesitated to let her live in squalor, despair, and metaphorical chains, with no rights, no health care, and no way to support herself.

Innocent people inevitably die in wars and military actions, even if the cause fought for is just and victory eventually secured. There’s no news flash there. The question is at what point war becomes necessary anyway. For some, the true, deeply-felt answer is “never,” and I can respect that. But as you might imagine, I’m not one of them.

Obviously, this is a long and frustrating discussion at the beginning of what will no doubt be a long and frustrating conflict. It’s good that we’re trying to work out some of these issues; as difficult as this debate might be (and yes, it’s a debate; it’s way too classy for the Pit), it will help us make better decisions in the future.

That said, I’m rather disturbed by the notion that we should dig in our heels and refuse to change a single aspect of our behavior simply because it would be a “victory” for the terrorists. By that logic, we should have whitewashed the actions of the FBI and the ATF at Waco and Ruby Ridge the moment Tim McVeigh’s truck bomb erased the front of the Alfred P. Murrah building, and we should have stopped thinking about bullying and teenage torment the moment Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris began their classroom massacre.

It’s a logical fallacy to equate an examination of the incident’s background with a statement of justification, to say that “we deserved it.” One does not need to condone McVeigh’s horrific act to agree that Waco and Ruby Ridge were federal fuckups on a grand scale. Klebold and Harris were harassed and persecuted, and this continues to be a serious issue, but their schoolhouse slaughter is still a tragedy. Likewise, it is not intellectually invalid to simultaneously condemn the evil acts of whomever carried out the attacks while examining the international scene that encouraged the development of such killers. Admitting the one does not in any way excuse or justify the other, and I’m tired of people asserting that this is so.

Many aspects of U.S. foreign policy have been, and continue to be, short-sighted and destructive. They should have been changed a long time ago, and they still need to be changed. This is separate and apart from the criminal acts of the terrorists. We should pursue and punish them as the international criminals that they are, drawing a hard line between their senseless destruction and the real-world political reality they thought they were commenting on. Again, I refer you to the continuing investigation of Waco and Ruby Ridge despite McVeigh’s bombing.

And incidentally, to those who wonder where the discussion of changing foreign policy was before now, how on Earth did you miss the drumbeat of criticism regarding the post-Desert-Storm sanctions against Iraq? Hussein stays in power, his people suffer, and Muslim extremists everywhere spin this for recruitment purposes. Colin Powell himself was working on this very issue up until a few weeks ago, when he discovered just how fractious the international community really is. A new approach was needed in Iraq before the bombing, and a new approach is still needed.

Another fallacy in this argument is the notion that “understanding” the political realities is somehow tantamount to appeasement, that what is being discussed is a touchy-feely therapy session, designed to get George Bush and Osama Bin Laden to run in slow-motion, hand-in-hand, through a field of daisies. I don’t give a shit what precisely motivates Bin Laden beyond the evidently enormous hatred he and those like him nurture, because it doesn’t matter: Nothing we do will get Bin Laden and his immediate hive of vermin to change their minds about the Great Satan. That’s the nature of extremists – they’re extreme, and they tend to stay that way no matter what anybody says or does.

(As an aside, don’t forget that we have extremists of our own, people who are just as unreasonable and beyond communication. If extreme beliefs were in and of themselves inherently evil, we would have handcuffed David Duke to Al Sharpton and dropped them off the national pier years ago.)

Our current conflict is with these extremists, the people who actively plan and execute violence against innocent people as a means of pursuing their ultimate goal, and rightly so. But these ideologies are not either-or. They fall in a series of concentric circles, with Bin Laden and his ilk in the center, surrounded by hard-liners, who are in turn surrounded by sympathizers, who are surrounded by conflicted-but-leaning-their-direction types, and so on.

That, to me, is what understanding the situation is about. There are millions of people around the world who may not have been willing to fly the planes themselves, or who are horrified by the act of mass murder, but who simultaneously say to themselves that it’s nice the United States was “taken down a notch.” Do you lump these people in the same camp as the terrorists? If so, you’ve increased the number of global enemies a hundredfold. And in so doing, you commit the same crime as did the terrorists: judgement by community. The terrorists look at the U.S. leaders who enact oppressive policies around the world, and they look at our civilian buildings full of stockbrokers and secretaries and mothers and brothers, and they see no difference between them. They judge them all identical, all fair game, all legitimate targets in their war (which, make no mistake, has been seen as such by the terrorists for years; for U.S. officials to term the attack an “act of war” is one of the no-shit-Sherlock moments of the last week).

We stand at the crossroads of history. We can commit the same grave error of moral judgement as did the terrorists, and paint huge numbers of people with one brush merely because it’s easier to think about that way. Or we can recognize that, in point of fact, we are fighting not one but two wars.

Obviously, we fight one war against the terrorists who use mass murder as a negotiation tactic. These people, without argument, are reprehensible and deserve the military wrath they will shortly be receiving. But we must realize that we are simultaneously fighting a second war: a war for the hearts and minds of those around the world who sit on the fence, those who do not support the terrorists’ attacks but who simultaneously cannot bring themselves to ally with the United States because of decades of abuse and oppression.

It’s easy to call the terrorists’ mass murders evil, because they are. But to, say, a fruit vendor in Damascus, it’s equally evil that the United States propped up Saddam Hussein for years during his war with Iran, looking the other way as he was gassing his ethnic minorities, and then flip-flopping against him when he got too big for his britches and putting the Iraqi people into a cauldron of despair. Again, this in no way makes us culpable and deserving of last week’s horrific attacks. But we must – must – realize the spectrum of perceptions around the world, because more than ever perception will become reality as millions of people are forced to choose sides.

We are not presently at war with the Muslim world. Bush’s overtures to Egypt, Jordan, etc., and his recent appearance at an American mosque are all intended to make this clear. But if we fail to recognize the complexities of the situation, we may very well inadvertently push the fence-sitters onto the extremists’ side instead of pulling them to ours. Not to mention the fact that, at the moment, there is no Muslim world: Afghanistan is not Iran is not Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia is not Syria is not Indonesia. Moderate Muslim nations have demonstrated they have no problem co-existing with comparatively liberal secular countries. But if we overstep our bounds, senselessly bombing Kabul into rubble (even though, after decades of war, that’s all it is anyway), we may very well find ourselves facing a united Muslim enemy. And then our only alternative will be to kill every Muslim on the entire planet, erasing their faith from the globe – and I don’t want to live in a world where that’s the only option.

And it’s important to realize that none of this says we’re required to change a damn thing. We have, however, done a piss-poor job explaining ourselves, engaging and communicating with the Muslim moderates who are as yet uncertain which side to choose. This is the second war, a war of thoughts and ideals and philosophies, a war in which we win allies not through threats and ultimatums but by reason and compassion. Osama Bin Laden is beyond this effort, and I will shed no tears when he has been reduced to a grease stain beneath the coalition’s boot. But there are millions upon millions of people teetering in the balance, and it’s not just foolish to disregard this, it’s suicide.

This is why I advocate understanding and thoughtful response, because the alternative is simply unthinkable.

I know, Jodi. I’m just so upset and frightened right now. I have never seen anything like this. It just makes me sick at heart.

Jodi, here is some two simple reasons we should know all about the terrorists, and their supporters, and the others who live with them but oppose their acts, all who are forced to dwell on the little place of hell they call home and why they tick:

  1. Israel lives nearby. Unless you are suggesting that Israel’s solution is to eradicate all the Palestinians once and for all, and in the process prove that radical Islam was right all along, you have to figure ways for Israel to live with them.

  2. We are about to enter Pakistan, who has a huge Taliban contingent that are bin-Laden fans. There are those who say that this might be a trap that would have fundamentalists there use the US presence as an excuse to start a coup against the military government. Just what we need, a nuclear country in a civil war, and American troops right there in the middle of it. A crucial part of this mission is to help the Pakistani government with this legitimate dilemma, otherwise the situation will become not like Vietnam, but like Lebanon, with nuclear weapons involved.

Dammit, I would PAY to fucking see that!!!

ROTFLMGDAO

CERVAISE, the only thing I feel the need to highlight from your post is this:

This, of course, is precisely my point. As for the rest of it, you appear to be addressing arguments I did not make (“the notion that we should dig in our heels and refuse to change a single aspect of our behavior simply because it would be a ‘victory’ for the terrorists;” “equate an examination of the incident’s background with a statement of justification;” “the notion that “understanding” the political realities is somehow tantamount to appeasement”). So I will allow whomever made such assertions to defend them, though frankly I’m not sure anybody did.

CAPACITOR – I don’t believe it is incumbent upon the United States to provide a solution for how Israel will live with its Arab neighbors. I’d really like it if they’d figure that out themselves, though I’m not holding my breath. But I am no more concerned with the Arab-Israeli conflict at this point than I am the Tutsi-Hutu conflict – both of which have the same degree of relevance to exacting justice for 9/11, which is to say none.

Again, I have never said that we do not need to prospectively weigh our actions. I have said that we do not need at this time to retrospecitively divine the specific motivations of this group of hijackers, nor to reevaluate our past foreign policy right now. If anyone does not at least see this point, please review the posts of FENRIS, SPIRITUS MUNDI, and SPAVINED GELDING. They are saying the same thing.

I am afraid I am not willing to allow anyone to extrapolate from my very narrow point – we do not need to understand these specific things at this specific time – the position that we don’t need to understand anything, ever. I have never said that, and so I will not defend it.

I was trying formulate something like your concentric circle model in my mind before Cervaise but couldn’t quite do it, thanks.

I would say to you and Capacitor that it is true we must understand this part of the region before we go stomping into it. The first war is the first battle of the second war. However, this does not necessarily require knowledge of the terrorists’ motivations. Bin Laden and his followers’ logic is by now so corrupted that it would not be useful. A solid understanding of mid-east political and social concerns would better serve.

BALDURAN, I would absolutely agree with that.

WEll, we DO have to study Bin Laden so we can trap him, I think. You know, figure out his weaknesses?

Or hell, maybe we should just send him all the mocking threads we’ve got on him here. He might just pop a kidney or something?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html

It’s short, to the point, and terrifying.

Basically, what it amounts to is Bin Laden is Keyser Soze…willing to do the unthinkable to acheive his ends. Our intention to “do whatever it takes” is pretty much beside the point - there isn’t alot we ** can ** do that is going to make a difference.

And understanding what he wants seems critical, because according to this essay, what he wants is World War 3, and he’s gonna get it at this rate.

stoid

…and apparently, factually wrong. Published reports are saying that we DO have the cooperation of Pakistan as a staging area/flyover zone for a potential invasion.

jodi said:

CAPACITOR – I don’t believe it is incumbent upon the United States to provide a solution for how Israel will live with its Arab neighbors. I’d really like it if they’d figure that out themselves, though I’m not holding my breath. But I am no more concerned with the Arab-Israeli conflict at this point than I am the Tutsi-Hutu conflict – both of which have the same degree of relevance to exacting justice for 9/11, which is to say none.

My reply:
If the government approaches the conflict with that attitude, then to the Muslim world, the actions the US took at the UN council on Racism was indeed just the beginning of the government policy of running roughshod over all Muslim nations on behalf of Israel. BTW, Yasser Arafat has ordered a unilateral cease fire, and Israel responded by withdrawing from all posistions in the Palestinian Authority area. So even without directly handling the problem there, the noise from the rattle got everyone’s attention.

That is small comfort, for a variety of reasons. One is that it appears to be limited support. They haven’t said that they are ready to be what Great Britain was to us in WW2.

Secondly, and far more disturbingly, the Pakistani government has a tenuous hold at best. Everything I’ve heard and read says that the current government represents a small minority of the people. Most Pakistanis support Afghanistan and are seemingly pretty pissed off about the government lending us support. Without the support of the Pakistani populace, it’s hardly a given that we will have a comfy place to make war from.

stoid

Hmm…

The problem I’m having with this discussion is that the reasons why we are hated are no secret to anyone…We’ve heard them a thousand times, in a thousand voices, since the 7 Day War…In exhasting detail…

Well…a major premise of the article that you said we MUST read…is that we would have to muddle through a highly resistant Pakistan. That’s demonstrably not true according to published reports…I said nothing about Great Britain type support. Your “must read” source has some significant facts quite wrong…so excuse me if I find him less than a “must read”

cite?..

Should this thread be moved to GD? It seems to be one. It’s the gawddamned most civil pit-thread I’ve ever seen.

(Is there a precident for moving things from the Pit to GD? Or would that violate some sort of natural order? :D)

Fenris