We should end the general lock-downs. Now

In these states, it’s now a matter of whether the healthcare system will be able to function over the next 2-4 weeks. Death rates will inevitably be higher not because the virus itself is deadlier, but because people are less likely to receive adequate care. In places like Houston and Phoenix, some patients (the percentage is an unknown) who could have been saved in a healthcare system that functions will die in one that doesn’t.

For all of the talk about how much economic pain shutdowns have inflicted, what’s not getting much discussion is the economic pain that’s about to visit the healthcare fields in small town, USA. Some hospitals will go bankrupt. They weren’t fiscally designed to withstand this onslaught.

As to nursing homes - thing is that the big impacts on controlling the spread in nursing homes is not likely family visits (which can be socially distanced) nor is the complete isolation from other residents adding all that much benefits. They are the cheap easy shows of action that actually cost much in terms of quality of life. The bigger deal is staff (that given the nature of the care needed cannot socially distance) with adequate PPE, adequately trained and motivated to use it correctly, and organized in ways that minimize their spreading germs through the facility and to other ones.

As to the second bit, never thought I’d use this phrase, but okay Boomer. You are talking about a generation that our generation has screwed royally. We’ve left them with planet on the brink of climate disaster, college debt that is unmanageable, and well a list that can go on for a while. As a generation we have not shown any concern about them. Now you want them to give up their jobs, to large degrees their professional futures, their ability to do the essential activity of young adulthood, having social relationships, developing new romances, and well most fun, for some undetermined amount of future time, maybe years, so YOU (metaphorical “you”) don’t have to be a hermit to protect YOURself?

Expecting them to stay at general lockdown level for any more than a very short period of time is unrealistic. It is a much bigger ask than you, on the same side of 60 I am, appreciate it to be. And asked by those who have not demonstrated their willingness to sacrifice for others themselves.

Well … that pinned my ears back a bit. Thanks for the opportunity to reflect.

As to nursing homes, Mom’s place is real aggressive about staff PPE, outside aides passing through, etc. It’s recognized by everyone involved that since that’s the one import vector they can’t stop cold, it remains the largest one they’re stuck with mitigating rather than preventing.

All of COVID mitigation for everyone everywhere is a matter of applying several individually modestly effective mitigations in overlapping layers and hoping the total amount of filtration makes everybody safe enough.

Of course, how strong a filter you need to achieve any given level of safety depends on how much bad stuff you’re trying to filter out. Which is a community-driven number. Multiplied by your personal risk of a severely bad outcome which is an individual number.

As applied to the nursing homes that means the residents’ opportunities to socialize among themselves becomes more restricted than they might otherwise be if all aides were full-timers who worked only at that one site. Because the individual residents’ risk of a bad outcome is so large, the amount of filtration they require is much greater than e.g. a similar cohort of kindergartners.


Which turns to my second comment that you took greatest exception to. And with some validity.

I am NOT advocating for commerce to be stopped. I am NOT advocating for people to stay away from their work.

At my work we’re doing the best we can to distance, sanitize, and mask. In my personal case my duties include sharing a small space with one other person for hours per day. Where we take turns touching the same stuff over and over while talking to one another almost continuously. Within that unmitigatable risk we take the precautions we can. We also face the unmitigatable risk of needing to eat in restaurants, be in crowds, and sleep in hotels. All of which risks we are taking proactive steps to mitigate. While getting the job done just as we did pre-COVID.

With the result that of our 40K traveling crewmembers of all kinds, we have no higher COVID rates than the public at large was having before FL, TX, etc., started to explode. In fact generally lower rates. So far our internal tracing data shows that crewmembers who have gotten sick are almost entirely bringing COVID in from their homelife, not catching it from their worklife.

This is a large enough sample of both headcount and location to plausibly have predictive power for a state or nation at large. It shows that personal countermeasures work.


What I AM advocating for is for the people (of any age) who are crowding into crowded places and wearing their mask as little as possible, rather than as much as possible, to consider that they are not only working hard to kill the economy they depend on, but their all also putting themselves and everyone around them at *completely unnecessary* risk.

Don’t take precautions for me. Take them for yourselves. I’ll gain as a collateral benefit, and so will everyone else. But you gain too. Best of all, it’s a virtuous circle. The fewer infections we collectively have, the fewer precautions anyone, and therefore everyone, need to take. That’s what I’m advocating for. Let’s make this a virtuous feedback loop, not a vicious one.


Having defended the position I tried to make last time, but perhaps not very clearly, I'll now agree with much of your criticism.

It is easier for me as a settled married person to crunch down my social life. Because it wasn’t that big to begin with. It also helps that I was never a crowd-loving person, but lots of people are. It’s also easier for me with my fairly lax schedule to go to the groc store 1x/week instead of my customary 3x/week. Ditto all the other shopping & logistics of modern life. And easier for me to attend restaurants at off peak times or not at all. Others may not be nearly so well-situated.

Said another way, some non-trivial fraction of what I was shaking my geezer cane at is in fact inevitable and necessary, not just frivolous disregard for public safety.

A privilege check is always a good thing. Thank you.


My bottom line on all this COVID stuff ... This is a marathon, whether any of us like that idea or not. It does no good to do something unsustainable (e.g. total retail shutdown) for a couple weeks when the war will last a couple of years at least.

Folks should be settling into the idea that this is a multi-year fight. IMO whether we’re talking a single person or a whole planetful of people, we can’t hold our breath until it goes away, but neither can we simply pretend life is as it was in 2019, and double down on the who-cares practices that got us where we are today.

Well, we can pretend, but the cost in dollars, lives, heartache, and political instability will be ginormously more than necessary. I’d prefer we work together to avoid that worst-case outcome.

At the beginning of this pandemic, I thought as DSeid: why should young adults give a rip about the generations (It’s more than one.) that screwed them over? When I became more aware of the enormous economic impact of the spread of COVID and that the segment of the population at risk is actually bigger than the Boomers, I changed my mind. My adult kids (20-something and 30-something) also made a good point: a lot of their friends have parents in my age group. (I’m 63.) Few of them are ready to lose their parents. When it’s personal, “OK, Boomer” doesn’t resonate so well.

Speaking as a guy involved with high schools in the admin side and as a substitute on occasion, I can see what can go wrong when there are a few students that before they could find ways to get figuratively under the skin of their teachers and specially substitutes.

Now they are aware that they can do it literally.

Happy to hear that your mother’s place is doing it all right, and I am hopeful that more and more other homes are now doing similarly good jobs. It would be huge if they all did.

Pretty much agree with everything else you said.

The LAST thing to open up should be closed crowded places where people get loud and especially with alcohol involved. Simple low cost items should be no brainers.

And the pace for a marathon must be sustainable. No matter what 20-somethings should do, we have to accept what many will do, and make the ask realistic.

@DSeid

Until those 20-somethings lose a grandma or two, or until they catch COVID and end up on the couch with a raging fever, horking up a lung, and suffering a headache from Hell, there isn’t anything you can say or do to get compliance.

20-somethings think they know everything, and they are full of entitlement. You just gotta wait until Reality kicks them in the butt.

“It’s MY life!” they’ll scream at you. Let them go play on the freeway.

~VOW

I wonder if this guy’s friends are taking it seriously now.

My 84 year old MIL is more than ready to get back to normal. It’s only her kids (my wife included) keeping her following the rules. But then, her childhood Reality was playing in a post WWII bomb scarred Marseille.

While I’m sure you can find a whole range of reactions among people of all ages, young people on average actually seem to overestimate the chances that they personally will contract or die of coronavirus, while older people tend to underestimate their personal risk. Cite.

Glad you get it. So how do you propose dealing with that reality other than tut-tutting at them with self-superiority?

That’s very interesting! That despite the self-perceived invulnerability of youth. (One of my biggest worries as a parent of teens and young adults had always been that they’d be even half as stupid as I was. And I was boring.) If true the issue is less risk taking youths, but too many older folk who maybe believe the whole thing is mostly media hype?

All that means if your grandmother doesn’t know the risks or doesn’t care about the risks. As much as you may love her, health policy should not be made based on gammy’s ignorance.

Well, she does vote. :mask:

Eta: MIL=mother in law. Not my grandma. They’ve both passed long ago.

Oh, my God. Could we please quit stereotyping twenty-somethings? Yes, there are some young idiots out there. There are some old idiots out there, too.

I happen to know quite a few twenty-somethings, as many of my former students are in that age, as is my daughter. They’re NOT all idiots in denial who couldn’t care less about anyone else. Most twenty- and thirty-somethings do wear masks and social distance.

Conversely, there are older people who don’t worry enough about COVID. They should be ashamed of themselves. If they aren’t, they’re pretty stupid.

See @Fretful_Porpentine’s citation. If true definitely lots of older people who do not think of themselves at big risk.

And there are some who worry lots but who still go out because they feel they’d rather die than live in isolation.

Sure there are lots of older people who don’t think of themselves as at big risk. Idiocy knows no age. Some would rather die than live in isolation? Fine. That’s they’re choice–die or isolate. If the preference is to die, however, you don’t get to endanger others en route.

In the meantime, maybe we can avoid lumping all young adults together in the idiot zone.

You see, this kind of rhetoric is part of the reason we seem to be at such an impasse in America. Just no respect in the least for others’ rights to hold their own opinions – ‘idiots’ they are if they think the risk is far overstated, their choice is ‘die or isolate’. I mean, it’s not just logically unsound, it’s actually really, really meanspirited. And it is all over this board.

If anything the real risk is being downplayed by self-serving scum trying to garner favor. I don’t give a flying fuck about someone’s uneducated opinion, as long as they do not endanger others by practicing their ignorance in public places. This ghod damn virus is real, this ghod damn virus has killed people close to me, and this ghod damn virus has injured even more. The time for civil debate was at the beginning of the year-Now I think it is high time that these idiots are jailed(or at least heavily fined) for endangering the public at large.
That civil enough for you, SayTwo?

It never fails to be simultaneously satisfying and frustrating when people play exactly to type.

Play?

This stopped being a game a long time ago. Now we are talking about survival, I would like people I know, and people all over the world I don’t know, to survive.