Yes, it’s media coverage. The corporate owned media will go out of their way to amplify the right-wing message that “these are all crazy supporters of law breaking immigrants”
This is what the media does. You are consuming propaganda, both subtle and overt.
A combination of the two, I suspect.
Certainly not true for what I’ve seen myself, or heard/seen others I know report, or seen on most media coverage — and I think the one such media report I did see was indeed from Texas, and near the border.
We may, of course, be looking at different media. I’m sure there are some focusing only on the most negative images they can find, and ignoring all the others. Which is one reason I think a whole lot of local protests are a good idea.
…It’s going to fail.
Ferguson failed. Black lives matter failed. Defund the police failed. The recent campus protests failed. The ICE protests will hopefully hold out to the 2028 elections and if the Democrats/whoever replaces the Democrats fail, then it all ramps up again.
ICE fails when you abolish ICE. That doesn’t happen without power. That doesn’t happen until “abolish ICE” because a Democrat rallying cry.
ICE, the Border Patrol, Homeland Defence, The Department of War, these are all inherently fascist organisations full of fascists doing fascist things. They won’t stop because of a “national network of tracking and support”. It ends when they are abolished.
I agree that ad hoc local efforts aren’t good enough.
It’s just that…who are you asking to step up here? If it’s the Democrats, then call them out. And I’m still not sure what sort of national network of tracking and support you mean.
People are being defiant.
But remember how the campus protests played out.
They were smashed up by the cops. They were smashed up fellow students and counter-protestors. Then they were kicked out of their homes. Expelled. Had their certifications withheld. Some were deported. Rules on “free speech” were changed so they weren’t allowed to say certain things.
And this was all under Biden.
Under Trump funding was withheld until the Universities fell in line. More students suspended and kicked out. The movement has basically been shut down.
Defiance can only ever get you so far.
And that’s the problem here with expecting “Trump opposers” to “up their game.” There are activists who have committed their lives to fighting this shit. They’ve put their bodies on the line. Recently at BLM. Occupy. Ferguson. The flotilla and campus protests.
They knew what was coming. “Defund the police” and “abolish ICE” were things that absolutely needed to happen, but instead they were shouted down.
This was always headed in this direction. And the people who have always been putting their necks on the line are tired.
MAGA have outsmarted and outflanked everyone, and the Democrats don’t have what it takes to stand up to them. Am I “dooming” the suggestions in this thread, or any other efforts at all to failure? No I’m not. That isn’t on me.
But America (and much of the rest of the world) are sliding toward authoritarianism. When you look back at history and ask “how did they let it happen” just look around you and this is how.
I don’t think it can be stopped. I think it will be at least ten years before we can build up an effective opposition. But the current generation of leadership has failed. And it will continue to fail until they are gone.
The time to “up your game” was ten years ago. But we missed that chance. Individually now upping your game means thinking how much you are willing to sacrifice. Protests are good. But protests like No Kings are safe. Would you risk losing your job, your livelihood, risk getting jailed and deported like the campus protesters did? Because everyone stepping up like that might make a difference. But I can’t see that happening.
I see increased Balkanisation. States and the feds will be at odds. I think focusing on the states, if you are in a Blue State, then keep it Blue. If you are in a Red State then the next election will be your last chance to do something and if you can’t…then move. Consolidate your power where you can. Because as much as people want this to end peacefully, I don’t see how it can.
No it’s not…
Because they were trying to achieve political goals. That was very hard with a regular administration, it’s not going to happen with Trump (without an order of magnitude, at least, increase in protest size)
I am not suggesting this protest will change political policy one iota. I am saying we will actually save lives.
We don’t have close to enough numbers to change policy, we have enough to seriously hamper ICE’s ability to seize people. It doesn’t take a 100 million people marching on DC to do that.
IF we organize and approach it as the life and death struggle it is. This is a “first they came for” situation and just speaking out is not going do anything. It’s a going to require direct action, and direct action at a national scale. Not leaving it to the people in the supermarket being raided by ICE to do it by themselves.
…I mean, I’m glad you are confident and all, but even if the Democrats take back power, ICE will still be doing its thing until its abolished.
And I’m arguing that isn’t going to happen. Not for a long while.
If we actually approached this as the life and death struggle that it actually is, we would be talking about taking up arms. You won’t be able to convince most people that its life or death until its actually life or death. Its all still a bit abstract right now.
But we aren’t. Because mentally, that isn’t where most of us are at. Most of us are at the “yeah this is bad, but it isn’t affecting me personally, what’s on TV tonight?” phase. People are dying elsewhere.
I said this when Biden got elected.I think the same thing applies now. “Upping your game” means protecting your community. It means local elections, if you elect the sheriff? Then get involved. The school board? Ditto. Judges? Find out who is standing and choose wisely.
Fight local battles. If you can and its safe, stand up for the city, then the state. At the federal level, the game is increasingly being rigged, and the Democrats aren’t up to the job. So be loud and clear on who you want to be fighting for you. Show that at the polls.
The leadership is there. But just look at the racist and Islamophobic attacks on Mamdami from both sides to see what they are up against. I think “stepping up” means helping to claim the space so that they can do their job.
Listen to the grass-roots activist groups and help out where you can. They will tell you what battles are sensible, and what might get you hurt. If that means protest ICE and you are able to do that, then do it. But not everyone can.
This isn’t a “doom post.” I think you can win. But I can’t see a “fight back” for at least ten years. Not a proper, well organised one. I think it will be a long period of local battles and consolidation.
And It’s going to get real bad first.
ICE will do as much of its thing as we, the people, allow it to do. If everyone who went to a no Kings rally organized and went out to disrupt ICE it would be very little. If we all sit on our butts and complain about how doomed we are it will be a lot.
No because that would both do nothing help protect ICEs victims (in fact would guarantee huge numbers of them will be killed ‘in the cross fire’) and be a massive boost for Trump and the military fetishists he surrounds himself with, who fantasize about putting down an actual armed insurrection all day long.
Right now you are probably not going to get executed in cold blood for peacefully disrupting ICE (not that there won’t be very serious repercussions) that won’t always be the case.
…but they won’t.
That’s exactly what is going to happen.
If people do “organise and approach it as the life and death struggle it is” then of course they would be taking up arms.
Because they are approaching it as a matter of life or death.
But “protecting ICE’s victims” is a different goal entirely. Do you see the inherent problem here?
You expect people to act likes it the former. But people actually have nothing at stake. They can’t act like its life or death because for them…it isn’t.
As I keep saying, people are peacefully attempting to disrupt ICE now. All “stepping up” means is that you would be joining them. Or at the very least suggesting who it is you think should be organising this nationally.
Probably not all of them, but it’s up to us, not Trump, not the house committee on whatever, not the joint Chiefs of staff. We get to decide where on the spectrum between ICE doing whatever the hell they want to any brown person in America, and being almost completely stymied.
That’s what you are doing. There’s a difference
…and most people have largely decided that they won’t.
What do you want me to do, fly to America? I’m brown and anti-Trump, they won’t even let me into the country. We’ve got our own problems here. I’m doing what I can, fighting our local version of MAGA.
But that’s exactly what is happening. Most people will just sit on their butts and do nothing. I’m not arguing that’s a good thing. It an observation of what is happening now, and a prediction of what will happen in the near future. I think long-term that will change. But things will have to get a lot worse before we reach that point.
I dunno, maybe just keep your opinions to your self and quit encouraging Americans to kowtow to fascism?
Moderating:
Tweet!
@Banquet_Bear & @griffin1977 stop this now. You’re both distracting from this thread, a lot. No warning, but no more arguing with each other either. Attacking posts is one this thing, attacking posters is not allowed. Also hijacking threads is not allowed in Politics & Elections.
This topic was automatically opened after 22 minutes.
Getting back to the thread topic, IMHO, one reason there isn’t enough vigor shown by Trump opposers is because there isn’t enough reward for them. Yes, people should oppose Trump for principle’s sake alone, but human nature is human nature, and bystander effect sets in when cost is high and payoff is low. It’s simply not in (most) people’s nature to fall on a sword for no benefit, yet that’s what most of us are asking people to do.
There has to be a real payoff for opposing Trump - be it fame, money, praise, an enhanced career, a boost to one’s political profile, etc. - not that that should be the main motive, but it needs to be a factor. We need to make it so that opposing Trump is not a career-ender, but a career-booster.
I heard the Washington State Attorney General speak last night. His career seems to be boosted by opposing Trump. We’ll see.
I’ve only skimmed this thread, so maybe I’ve missed something, but many of the things being discussed in this thread are already happening. So you don’t have to start from scratch, just join in with those who are already doing it.
IMO, one of the best organizations is Indivisible…
…a grassroots movement of thousands of local Indivisible groups with a mission to elect progressive leaders, rebuild our democracy, and defeat the Trump agenda.
At the link you can find your local chapter and join in the activities they are organizing. Every week, Indivisible co-founders (and former congressional staffers) Ezra and Leah have a zoom call, What’s the Plan, in which they discuss the current situation and their plan for future activities.
That said, Indivisible is very decentralized. The national organization provides guidance and minimal financial support, but each chapter organizes itself and its activities independently, often in cooperation with other local progressive groups.
You can also go to Mobilize to find activities in your area, whether you’re a member of a group or not.
A year ago, just after the election, my wife and I were looking around for an organization we could join, and after a little searching found Indivisible. To our surprise there was no active chapter in our area, here in deep blue Massachusetts. So my wife took it upon herself to create one, and since January, when we started with 12 other people, we have grown to over 600 members.
When a change in our financial situation occurred this spring, she retired from her job two years earlier than planned so she could work on running the chapter full time. I’m already retired and help out with editing the newsletter and various other tasks.
Our chapter has organized weekly rallies in our region and our members participate in weekly protests outside the nearest ICE facility that have been going on since February. Our weekly e-mail newsletter lists our coming activities and calls to action from various other local activist groups.
We have established a good relationship with our U.S. Representative, so much so that he asked to speak at our local No Kings rally in June, which drew 1,000 people.
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Yes.
Make soup and chili. Get some canned and frozen food. There is not a lot of prep involved.
This is MUCH more important than visiting aunt Martha.
Considering what Trump etal is doing to this country, we should be ready for this at any time. Pretend there is a blizzard or hurricane coming. It has arrived.
The problem is that Trump, Miller etal won’t care. Oh, it may be hard for Trump to get his McD’s, but that’s it.
I’d still note that the Democratic leadership doesn’t appear to have a No Kings policy plan, legislation plan, nor amendment plan.
If you’re saying, “No Kings”, but it’s clear that all that’s meant is “No Trump”, then you’re going to fail.
You can’t win the country on 1/3rd of the people. If it’s just your side versus their side, and the complaint seems to be that he is using all the cool toys, and you’re not allowed to, then that’s not much of a pitch to the 1/3rd who are more interested in America and policy, than being a member of some political clan. Especially if, what the Democrats who are out in the streets are literally saying is that those “cool toys” - use of the government apparatus to empower a party, use of loopholes to avoid incrimination, etc. - are bad and inappropriate, and yet no one has any intent or goal to remove any of that. Hypocrisy will take the party nowhere.
If you can’t find No Kings leaders - i.e. people with a plan to restore the rule of law and remove the opportunities for corruption and rogue partisanship - then your protests are against the wrong people. You’re not going to shift the opinions on the right. You might, however, be able to get those on the left to look for leaders who are not just lip-syncing to what the people are calling for, but honestly interested in working towards fixing those issues.
At that point, maybe you get the rest of the country to come over and support you. With 2/3rds on your side, then you can move forward to a win.
If the people are calling for “No Kings” and your leaders have no platform to match, then your focus needs to be on your leaders.
You want to take all the building energy of this movement and waste it on something that’s flat out guaranteed to go nowhere?
This is way too important for that.