Weapons experts. Re video Dallas Police shoot mentally ill man standing still. What happened?

[Loach]

@Marley23

The bottom line seems to be that, too often, cops go into these situations knowing that shooting the person would be technically justified even if it’s unnecessary and the situation can be resolved another way (even if that way takes longer). So people who are ill and potentially dangerous but not a threat get shot and killed. The police need to be able to evaluate these situations better so shooting someone becomes a last response only used when someone is actively threatening them, not when someone could possibly become a threat to them.

That is what happens. Every day. Hundreds of times across the country everyday. One thing that I was surprised about when I got this job was how many dangerously mentally ill people there are. An EDP call is one of the worst calls you can go on. You never know how bad it’s going to go. Sometimes it goes very very bad.

@Zebra

I really don’t see how this was a tense situation.

“He’s complying to my orders! OMG!”

Their LIES on the report as to what happened show us that these two particular officers of the law are just play sociopaths who kill without cause. Trying to analyze ‘why’ isn’t a job for weapons experts. It’s a job for a head shrink. And they can only tell us why they are bat shit crazy.

You forgot armed. That’s a big thing to forget.

@Lemur866

I seriously doubt that these particular cops were thrill-killers who murdered this guy for fun and high-fives. The much more likely explanation is that they’re ordinary assholes like you and me and killed this guy for no reason by mistake, and then realized what happened and tried to cover it up, because if you murdered someone by mistake wouldn’t you try to cover it up?

Now, what exactly was the mistake? Likely explanation is that they heard the word “knife” and “crazy dude” from the dispatcher and were amped up in full Rambo mode, and couldn’t tell the difference between a crazy dude charging them with a knife and a crazy dude sitting in a chair and then standing up when they told him to stand up.

Like, they tell him to stand up, but when he stands up their brainstem tells them that standing up is threatening. He was sitting down, now he’s standing up, his next move is to charge us. Nevermind that they’re the ones that told him to stand up. And when you shoot the first time, well, there are gunshots all around, gunshots mean danger, so you keep shooting until you don’t hear gunshots anymore.

Now why these easily-spooked highly-strung guys were given guns and badges and told to round up crazy dudes is a good question. The answer is that cops are ordinary people like you or me, except they have guns and badges and a little bit of training. I mean, we try to weed out the guys who are gonna panic and empty their guns the first time they get nervous, but sometimes they’re going to slip through the selection process.

First off let’s just get it correct. Unless I’ve missed an update no one was murdered. He was injured. Other than that I think you are close to the truth.

[Marley23]

@Loach

That is what happens. Every day. Hundreds of times across the country everyday. One thing that I was surprised about when I got this job was how many dangerously mentally ill people there are. An EDP call is one of the worst calls you can go on. You never know how bad it’s going to go. Sometimes it goes very very bad.

Right. My impulse with these things is that it’s more of a police training problem than a problem with psychos on the force, although it goes without saying there have to be some of those. But it’s very sad and frustrating. This can be handled better. Oh, and it goes without saying that there should be better care for people who are mentally ill.

[llcoolbj77]

@Meatros

Was that near Fairfax? I seem to recall either that incident or one very similar happening around here.

Yep. Loudoun. The Sterling Costco, in fact. An officer was shot as well (friendly fire) in the leg. They think it was a riccochet. Couldn’t of happened to a nicer guy. Actually, Jason is one of the good guys.

[Frazzled]

I think Lemur866 has the best analysis of what likely transpired. Speaking generally, where people are involved you’ll always have the potential for mistakes. When you throw in a stressful situation then the potential for mistakes grows exponentially. Training can reduce error but it will never eliminate it. When the tool you use to defuse situations is guns then the penalty for error is very high. It’s understandable, though inexcusable, why police will try to protect their own when human error can lead to prison.

Non lethal weapons can defuse an immediate threat allowing calmer heads to assess what’s going on and take a smarter course of action. In the few seconds of video I saw I wonder why police were using guns rather than a tazer. A mistake with a tazer is far more desirable than a mistake with a gun.

I’m not advocating that police stop using guns, but with stronger non lethal weapons guns would only be necessary in the most dangerous situations. Non lethal weapons reduce the potential for collateral damage, they reduce the penalty for human error, and they give police better options to use an appropriate amount of force in a given situation.

[llcoolbj77]

@Marley23

Right. My impulse with these things is that it’s **more of a police training problem **than a problem with psychos on the force, although it goes without saying there have to be some of those. But it’s very sad and frustrating. This can be handled better. Oh, and it goes without saying that there should be better care for people who are mentally ill.

Bolding mine. EXACTLY.

But even with all the training in the world, folks make mistakes. And when you make a mistake with a gun, it tends to be a bit of a big problem. I remember the first time I shot a gun, and reeling from the amount of power that just jolted through my body, that it was horrifying that almost anyone was allowed to have one of these things. :eek:

[Loach]

@Frazzled

I think Lemur866 has the best analysis of what likely transpired. Speaking generally, where people are involved you’ll always have the potential for mistakes. When you throw in a stressful situation then the potential for mistakes grows exponentially. Training can reduce error but it will never eliminate it. When the tool you use to defuse situations is guns then the penalty for error is very high. It’s understandable, though inexcusable, why police will try to protect their own when human error can lead to prison.

Non lethal weapons can defuse an immediate threat allowing calmer heads to assess what’s going on and take a smarter course of action. In the few seconds of video I saw I wonder why police were using guns rather than a tazer. A mistake with a tazer is far more desirable than a mistake with a gun.

I’m not advocating that police stop using guns, but with stronger non lethal weapons guns would only be necessary in the most dangerous situations. Non lethal weapons reduce the potential for collateral damage, they reduce the penalty for human error, and they give police better options to use an appropriate amount of force in a given situation.

In 15 years I have never even held a taser. Everyone does not have one. The thing with less than lethal weapons is that you really shouldn’t be using them in situations in which deadly force is authorized. It is very rare that you get into a situation in which you have the opportunity to go, “Ok I’ll use this, hmm that didn’t work. Lets try the Taser. Oops missed. Ok lets get out my gun.” I agree a taser probably would have been the best way to go in this particular situation (if they even had one) but it usually isn’t in a case in which you are up against a person with a weapon.

[ducati]

I haven’t seen the entire video. From that link, it jumps around, and is in very poor focus or resolution.

Contrary to Texas and Nevada police haters who clearly have a problem with cops, police officers don’t just show up and shoot someone for no fucking reason whatsoever. Sure, mistakes happen, training fails, and more, but no one simply tries to “straight up murder someone and lie about it.”

Without better evidence, and without waiting for the investigation, I would suggest that the subject put the knife to his body somehow, threatening to harm himself. In some agencies, this is justification for shooting and injuring the subject, so they can’t harm themselves. Perhaps just refusing to drop the knife was enough. If don’t don’t comply with direct orders, the results can be catastrophic. Without audio, it will take a while to determine exactly what was said.

Yes, that can sound counter-productive, but an EDP with a knife can certainly kill themselves very easily, whereas a gunshot isn’t a guaranteed kill.

No, you can’t shoot the gun out of his hand without snipers as some would opine.
And a leg or arm shot may not disable the subject.

4 rounds? Standard. Cops don’t shoot once, see if that hurt, check email, then try again. Cops shoot to stop the threat, until the threat is stopped. Sometimes death occurs, but it’s not their intent.

It would seem - pending further evidence - that they chose the lesser of 2 evils facing them.

All of you cop-haters should try a ride-along sometime. I should imagine your eyes will be opened to a great number of things.

[Marley23]

@ducati

In some agencies, this is justification for shooting and injuring the subject, so they can’t harm themselves.

Holy shit, really? In every single discussion of these issues that I have ever seen, people with law enforcement experience stress that officers are always trained to shoot to stop, not to disable or disarm a suspect.

[Marley23]

I’m just boggling at this explanation, ducati. You’re saying they were justified in shooting him if he threatened to harm himself because maybe the shooting would have stopped him from hurting himself? That’s tough logic to follow - nevermind that the shooting killed him.

[Dallas_Jones]

Pretty standard procedure when police are dealing with the mentally ill. Even in my neck of the woods, ultra-liberal Portland Oregon, if you do not comply with instructions you will get shot. It is currently politically correct to dis Texas, but it happens everywhere.

This guy in Dallas did not get rid of the knife and gets shot. It is past time for counseling or therapy. The police response is drop the knife or get shot. Those are your options. The mentally ill do not understand this so they get shot, on a fairly regular basis, all over this country.

In Portland, Ore., police check on a man threatening suicide and wind up killing him with a single gunshot in the back.

Dallas police shoot mentally ill man standing in the street

[Marley23]

@Dallas_Jones

This guy in Dallas did not get rid of the knife and gets shot.

We don’t know that he was asked to drop the knife.

The police response is drop the knife or get shot. Those are your options. The mentally ill do not understand this so they get shot, on a fairly regular basis, all over this country.

We understand that the police often handle these situations in a black and white way. They don’t have to. Particularly when they’re dealing with people who aren’t an immediate threat and who may not understand basic instructions.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@ducati

Contrary to Texas and Nevada police haters who clearly have a problem with cops, police officers don’t just show up and shoot someone for no fucking reason whatsoever. Sure, mistakes happen, training fails, and more, but no one simply tries to “straight up murder someone and lie about it.”

<snip>

All of you cop-haters should try a ride-along sometime. I should imagine your eyes will be opened to a great number of things.

First, your characterization of me as a “cop-hater” is way off base. I don’t hate cops; I hate bad cops and the people who enable them.

Second, I’ve been on ride-alongs in Kissimmee, FL and Henderson, NV. And it didn’t open my eyes to anything I didn’t already know and understand.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Dallas_Jones

This guy in Dallas did not get rid of the knife and gets shot.

Actually, at the moment we don’t know that he even had the knife in his hand when was shot.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Marley23

We understand that the police often handle these situations in a black and white way. They don’t have to. Particularly when they’re dealing with people who aren’t an immediate threat and who may not understand basic instructions.

Exactly.

Dallas Jones, what if the man they were confronting was deaf, for instance?

Or didn’t speak the same language as the police?

Both of those incidents involved tasers, although one of them did result in a man’s death. And they are just off the top of my head; I remember when they both happened.

Would you agree that it’s kind of hard to comply if you can’t hear or understand the instructions police are giving, Dallas Jones?

[user_hostile]

As I cautiously raise my hand in the thread, would a beanbag shotgun made any difference? Or those paintball guns that disperse pepper balls?

I have no idea about the use, training, scenarios, etc., or even it the latter is available.

Naturally, being hypothetical, I’m not expecting miracles with these kinds of weapons. Say you bring out the shotgun, would that more likely provoke a negative response from the mentally-ill person? As oppose to holstered Taser.

[ducati]

@user_hostile

As I cautiously raise my hand in the thread, would a beanbag shotgun made any difference? Or those paintball guns that disperse pepper balls?

I’m all for Less Than Lethal weapons if they’re effective. A beanbag round or rubber donut or two should have put him down, but they may not have had a LTL weapon on hand.

Taser has been working on a shotgun-deployed unit that lets officers stand off farther, but put still a Taser on the subject.

These are always lose-lose situations, and usually a tragedy for all involved, but I still say the term “murder” is thrown out far to quickly and often by those who have little respect for law and LEOs.

Here’s an idiot deserving of your disdain.

I won’t say they don’t exist, only that they are exceedingly rare.

[Zebra]

@Loach

You forgot armed. That’s a big thing to forget.

You forgot about how the police put in their report that the man was coming at them.

The video clearly shows that to be a lie.

They spent what, about 10 seconds trying to get him to drop the knife? He is about 20 feet away from them. Not brandishing the knife. They are in no way in danger form said knife.

Ask him to freeze, he freezes.
Ask him to drop the knife, he doesn’t, they shoot. Then they LIE!

They are not in danger. No civilian is in danger. They shoot him and they lie about it.

[toofs]

I don’t hate police officers. I am supportive of the service they provide to the community. Personal friends of mine are cops.

Quoting myself from the pit thread about another police shooting:

[QUOTE=me]
If they used violence and tried to kill the men, they would keep their jobs. It is odd how that works. Racism, sexism, or other non-violent acts can get cops fired. Inappropriate use of lethal force will not.
[/QUOTE]

When police or anyone in authority grossly abuses the use of lethal force, they need to be held accountable, up to and including prosecution and prison.

[chacoguy]

That cop panicked. How else do you explain how he missed 3 out of four shots when that guy was within Nerf Gun range?

[Steophan]

Some points.

If someone is 20 feet away, with a knife, they are a danger to you unless you have a gun on them ready to shoot instantly. It would take a couple of seconds for them to get to you and stab you, not long enough to prepare a defence.

Secondly, the vast, vast majority of mentally ill people can understand a command from the police, and make a choice whether to obey. In that case, it is their responsibility to obey. I say this speaking as a mentally ill person.

Thirdly, anyone incapable of doing so should not be out in public, or given access to knives.

Fourthly, if the police lied, they should be punished for lying. If they shot him illegally, they should be punished for that. Those are two separate incidents, that should be investigated and dealt with separately. Evidence that they lied is not necessarily evidence that they shouldn’t have shot him.