Weekly Comic Book Discussion 5/03/2006

Cafe Society
21

Yeah, I’m not terribly happy with the Speed Force treatment either.

[spoiler] Okay, giving SB the bum rush into it? Good plan. Worked for Savitar.

It going kerflooey? I’m fine with it. It’s happened before. Speed force connection is notoriously unreliable. It’ll be back.

Imprisoning SB in red sunlight. Um… I’ve always seen the SF as more of a Nirvana “become one with the force” kind of thing. Not so much a place where you could build a cage or armor. That’s the big screw up.

As for Bart, well, IMHO, he’s been ruined since Johns decided he should grow up and try way too hard to be the next Flash. He was doing his own thing just fine as Impulse. So this doesn’t really bug me.

Jay will get his full speed back. This just lets him operate until the Speed Force proper returns. [/spoiler]

22

Huh. According to the EIC of DC, one of the many things that Superboy Prime retpunched out of reality was the Peter David Matrix/Supergirl. Dammit. I mean, granted, without Peter David writing her, she wouldn’t be all that interesting a character but still…

23

Teen Titans 35: Vic needs to be smacked. Hard. OK, he doesn’t like Rose. He has reason not to. But he doesn’t even know Kid Devil. Or Wendy and Marvin. Aside from all that, nice issue. The shot of Dorothy in the Doom Patrol HQ was nifty.

Polly and the Pirates 5: Have I ever mentioned I love this book? Polly’s explaination of how she could handle the sword is…well, it’s kind of silly, but it’s clever. And the ships are beautiful.

24

That would explain why he had the heroes’s abilities and why those blue dealies where coming out of his neck.

As for the Speed Force/Flash issue, I didn’t put much thought into the former, but on the latter:

I was never a fan of Bart as the annoying kid brother character so I’m perfectly happy with him growing up. I never read the Impulse series, so maybe I’m missing out.

25

[spoiler]I don’t think Iron Man is so much concerned with doing what’s legal, just that he believes it’s neccesary on a pragmatic level to fess up about the superheroics. In the Avengers: Illuminati special, he says, “We should cooperate now before it gets ugly. Before someone or everyone is made an example of… half of us will go along with it and half of us won’t. And because of this mini-rebellion, our lawmakers will be forced to make an example of someone. Someone like our friend Spider-Man. Someone they can make a real spectacle of. Someone they can unmask on TV, destroy his marriage and family and pin a crime or two on! … Sides will be taken and people will get hurt. Friend against friend. People who used to be adversaries finding themselves teamed up against a common cause. Friends dying at the hands of a former ally or teammate. That is what will happen.”

I don’t think Iron Man really supports what the government is doing, he’s just going along with what he thinks will be the least painful route for everyone. And he’s right – sooner or later someone’s going to get hurt, someone’s life is going to be ruined. The government’s already hired the Thunderbolts to bring uncooperative heroes to heel. They’re going to hunt heroes like Spider-Man down like a dog. Iron Man is a realist. [/spoiler]

Also, may I say one of the things I’ve been loving the most in the past year or so of Marvel Comics is how much debate has sprung up from the issues being raised. I think it’s a very healthy sign when the fans are genuinely thinking about and debating the meaning and messages being advanced.

26

I meant Nomad, yes. Sorry, The Patriot is someone else. Jeff Mace. A former Cap. III, I think.

That said, I’ve not read Civil War, yet, I’ll agree with you that Cap tends to have patience, he tends to obey the rules while speaking out if he disagrees, and then breaks when he decides he has to.

I’m just noting that he is not tied like a leash to the Government. Anything beyond that speaks to the specifics of the issue, and I havn’t read it yet. It may well be Millar being an idiot.

27

Yeah, I preferred her character too, but I can see why they did it. Besides that SG being totally PAD’s character, she also had almost nothing to do with Superman. Plus, she failed the index card test. I can totally see why “reboot to Kal’s Kryptonian cousin” seemed the right answer.

28

No, IMO, Millar’s not being an idito yet. Right now, it’s (at most) really a somewhat minor quibble about the handling of Cap’s character. IF the law is reasonable (“You can retire or join up.”) then Cap jumped ship WAAAAY too fast (if he should have jumped at all. I’m not convinced that he would.) IF the law isn’t reasonable (“We’re going to hunt all superfolks down, put chips in their heads and have them followed around by Sentinels with orders to squish 'em if any hint of power’s being used. And then put their remains in a concentration camp.”) then Cap’s jumping is fine.

So far, Millar’s big flaw, such as it is, is not making the details of the proposed law clear enough. And if it is the “reasonable” version, then this may be the most morally complex comic I’ve ever read.

Hell, if it’s the reasonable version (And the Thunderbolts issue doesn’t clear things up for me–IIRC they’re supposed to hunt down still-active heroes, not find out heroes who choose to retire. Remember the guy with bunny-powers from a McFarlane issue of Spider around #305 or so? The one who refused to use his powers at all? They’re not (IIRC again) tasked with finding people like him), then I’m not entirely convinced it’s a bad idea either. There’s something to be said for the “cop” speech.

I also hope that if he uses the “reasonable” version, the changes last. Let the law take effect for a year or so after the series and explore the consequences.

I’ll tell ya. I went into this with VERY, VERY low expectations, figuring it would just be a leftie screed. Sorry for bringing politics into the thread, but let’s face facts: Except for (maybe) John Byrne, (maybe) Jim Shooter and certainly Steve (Ayn Rand/Objectivist) Ditko, most comic writers either don’t address politics at all and if they do, they lean somewhere from just a tiny bit to the very mainstream left (Mark Waid, Marv Wolfman, Elliot S! Maggin) to the totally psycho left (Steve “Facist England, 10 Miles Ahead*” Engelhart is a psycho leftie as is Denny “Can’t write ANYONE who doesn’t agree with him politically” O’Neill are exceptions.)) Given that, I figured this would just be a rant, especially after the 6th hand info I’d heard–I picked it up on the stand to Byrne it and got hooked. If Millar pulls this off, this could really be a spectacular Crisis-level story.

Menocchio–Heh I’d never heard of the index card test. :smiley: Love it! How many of the X-Men fail? Cyclops (Jean/Nathan/Cable/Rachel/the new mystery brother) and he’s the easiest of that set. And Hawkman? Ditto.

As an aside, there’s a series by David called “Fallen Angel” that apparently is “wink-wink, nudge-nudge” a direct sequel to his Supergirl stuff. Haven’t read it, but I’ve heard good things about it.

*Really. He had a street sign in Millenium that said that. :rolleyes:

29

Newsarama interview on Civil War with Millar and editor Tom Brevoort:

*NRAMA: At this point, how much do we know about the government’s proposal? Is it just train and register all heroes, and if you don’t register, you’re a villain?

TB: Villain is perhaps too strong a word. If I drive an automobile without a license, I’ll be arrested. If I carry a weapon without a permit, I’ll be jailed. Same thing. If you’re in possession of superhuman abilities, the government wants you licensed in the use of those powers, and sanctioned in the way that they’re to be used. *

30

On the Cap thing; I think we have to realize Cap’s seen the Rise of the Riech up close and personal. He’s seen the slippery slope and may well believe that anytime the government starts ‘registering’ people whose only ‘crime’ is being born or creating something different, the next step is the camps.

He’s seen it before…even Stark’s concession. “If we sigb up, they’ll leave us alone…”

It never works and Cap knows this.

Fenris I don’t know how much of the other materials you’ve read, but alot of how people are reacting can be explained it them. As already noted in the FF and Illuminati, shows what the underlying issue is.

Hell, wait till the Hulk gets back to earth…

31

Big black guy, bit by a radioactive jackrabbit. I liked him. :slight_smile:

Fallen Angel is out? That was his plan, as I recall it. What’s the publisher? Got to find it now.

32

The difference, and I’m sure you all see this, is that you can choose not to carry a weapon. Iron Man can choose not to have powers.

Peter can’t choose not to be superstrong.

33

Ok, it sounds like it’s the unreasonable version (boo!) of the law, in which case I’m disappointed, but I understand Cap jumping ship like he did. I agree if it means all super-humans (not just ones who choose to be active) have to register Cap would have a major problem with it. Given that it’s the unreasonable version of the law (boo!) then I retract my Cap objection.

But hell, how do you determine? Cap has no super-powers. Most olympic athletes could compete with him in one field or another. Do they have to register? How 'bout Stephen Hawking?

E-Sabbath
Fallen Angel had ~20 issues published by DC and now 4 issues (to date) published by a new publisher

34

And I missed it entirely. How odd. (Fallen Angel) I remember hearing about it, come to think of it.

Of course, the question also includes persons such as Elektra, who has no powers at all, nor any heightened abilities.

35

The Nuke thing was what I’d thought of, Fenris. Captain America, as in the continuity right now, works for the ideal but has deep doubts about whether the government is worthy of those ideals. Sort of like a Catholic who (this is a quote from one I read) has doubts about the church but only questions about the faith. Cap can debate the merits of the American Ideal forever with himself and not feel bad about that evolving concept but can develop a deep distrust of government and not feel put down at all when he needs to work against it.

In my continuing fall back towards Superhero books I picked up CW yesterday. Good book with good writing. I agree that making it some sort of anti-GWB or somesuch would take away from the power of the story. But I’m willing to see how it goes.

And remember, people. It’s not like registration and government distrust of meta-humans is new in the Marvel-verse. Otherwise why are those Sentinels watching the X-Men?

And did anyone else flash on the image of the dead rapist with ‘NEVER’ written on him that Rohrshach left at the police station in ‘Watchmen’?

Oh, and the second issue of ‘Mouse Guard’ was just as good as the first. Y’all should try it.

36

Re: Civil War & Captain America

Captain America’s stance is totally in character. As other posters have pointed out, he saw the effects of registering humans firsthand in Nazi Germany and it’s natural he would feel an instinctual revulsion for anything resembling it.

It’s worth recalling that he is a voluntary freelance agent for SHIELD who voluntarily revealed his identity. Yet his belief in life, liberty, etc. prohibit him from believing his peers should be forced to do the same. I’m sure he sees the value of the proposition, but abhors the implementation.

My one complaint about the situation is that I thought the situation between him and Director Maria Hill escalated unnaturally fast.

37

My thoughts on the Supergirl thing - I liked what I’ve seen of PAD’s Supergirl (I have the whole series (I think), and it’s on my ‘must read’ list, but I haven’t gotten to it, yet), but I think both the character and the DCU are better served by removing her from continuity.

She’s a very interesting character, but she’s a needless bump on what’s already a headache of a character continuity…and a reminder of a few other things better left forgotten (Lex Luthor II, the other Krypton).

If DC and PAD want to revisit the character tag it as an Elseworld, and it’ll be fine.

(Of course, that might just be a counter-reaction to the ‘Peter David’s Version is Sacrosanct!’ nonsense surrounding Superboy, Wonder Girl, and Impulse.)

38

I’m not sure she’s relevant, being both a criminal and a non-resident/ non-citizen of the US.

Daredevil is a bit more to the point. His super-powers, while interesting, are pretty trivial without his extensive martial arts training. On paper, he’s no more “super” than Jackie Chan or Chuck Norris.

39

Keep in mind also it’s not just about how reasonable the law is, but also what else the law might entail. I think Cap is afraid that the more regulated superhumans become, the more power politicians have over them – “Washington starts telling us who the super-villains are.” What’s next, little armies of superhumans loyal to this general or that senator?

40

Someone on another board made a good point that Marvel superhumans must be TERRIFYING to the populace at large. Magneto took over Genosha. Ultron decimated the nation of Slorenia. Washington DC was nuked. New York City gets attacked by aliens, Atlantean terrorists, demons, mutant supremacists, and megalomaniacs every week. The Purple Man rampages through periodically raping and murdering. An entire school full of children was destroyed during a superhero battle being taped for a reality TV show. Why should the public trust superhumans, even superheroes?