Heh…and in one notable* Legion story, the writer (Paul Levitz(?) who should know better) point blank stated that Superboy was hyper-vunerable (super-vulnerable? ) to magic: Mordru was broadcasting a low level “Give up. Mordru commands you to come to him.” signal. The rest of the Legion rolled their eyes and thought it an annoyance, Superboy became a mind-numbed zombie who had to be restrained. The rest of the story still rocked though.**
Fenris
*The story was excellent, the specific bit was problematic though
**Except for the ending…Levitz(? or was it Conway? If would make sense if it was Conway as he never really did have a feel for the Legion) seemed to feel that Mordru wasn’t claustrophobic (the “buried alive” thing), but was actually allergic to something in the soil (ala Kryptonite). Element Lad took some interstellar hydrogen, turned it into the mystery soil element and dusted Mordru with it. Oops.
We’re debating here. That is, we’re discussing alternative points of view. Given that the crossover is not “canon” and the fact that a number of other writers disagree with the point of view I believe it is reasonable (particularly when we see Wonder Woman cut Superman with her tiara) to discuss this. If you don’t like it then obviously you don’t need to participate in the discussion. I do see your point but I think I am presenting reasonable arguments to counter your point and citing “Avengers/JLA” is like taking your ball and going home.
That was an amped up Superman so it is not quiet the same as regular continuity Superman. Regardless, he was badly hurt by the lightning. Thor would not be converting into his human form at every strike. He would be shooting mystical blasts or just pounding on Superman as the lightning came down. It would make for a much different fight.
No, he is not incorrect. The writer of the crossover has his point of view. That point of view appears to conflict with other evidence suggesting that perhaps his point (B) was not the right choice. The crossover is not continuity so in the world of comics it really doesn’t mean that much.
How did the pre-crisis Superman interact with magic weapons and magically generated physical force? He was vulnerable to magic, I know, but I’ve only seen it in teh context of mind control or him being transformed into something unfortuante and the like. Never direct physical attacks.
Oop - there you go. See, here’s the problem : The crossover is canon. At least, in the DCU. Marvel hasn’t addressed it, but DC did a follow-up storyline in JLA. In fact, it’s more canonical than Kingdom Come (which is an Elseworlds).
Menocchio : It’s been so long since I looked at my older Supes comics, that I can’t give you a definitive answer. He didn’t deal with magic on a regular basis. Fenris might be able to provide something more helpful.
Yet writers within the DCU seem to be contradicting it by having things like a magical tiara slice and dice Superman. It’s not canon in the MU and crossovers tend to be ignored on comic book boards. The debate is still ongoing and I comfortable in my position as I think is supported by the “comc evidence”, if I may, out there.
I just read that issue. Conclusion of the really rather long Earthwar arc (5 issues was a long story in 1978!).
To be absolutely fair, the others didn’t quite just shrug it off - Lightning Lad has a moment before Saturn Girl hardens them to it.
Supes’ oversensitivity to the suggestion was pretty ridiculous, though.
I’m sorry to say it was Levitz, not Conway. To be fair to him (again) he didn’t invent the ‘has to be buried in earth’ thing (or, at least not for Earthwar - I’m not sure who write the earlier story I’m thinking of - the one with the blood jewels, IIRC) - it was established a couple appearances earlier that it wasn’t just burial, but burial in Earth that did it - though that contradicts his earliest appearances.
Except that the magic tiara thing doesn’t contradict it, since we still have entirely plausible, not at all far-fetched explanations that fit all available data, including both the tiara and Mjolnir.
Great. I’m coming in to the comic thread so late that I’m practically hijacking it.
Amazing Spider Man 522: Easily one of the best issues I’ve read in a long time. Parker throws Wolverine out of a top floor window of Stark Towers, and that’s just the start. Just a good old fashioned Spidey story. Bit of brains. Bit of action. Loads of wisecracks. This issue reminded me of why I read Spider Man in the first place.
Astonishing X-Men 11: Ya know, if Joss keeps this up I may have to reconsider calling him a hack. Always good to see Xavier smashing stuff up in a semi.
True–but in the blood jewels thing, it wasn’t (IIRC, and it’s gotta be 10 years since I read it so I may not RC ) the “buried in the earth” thing still fit the earlier “trapped in an enclosed space without air” that they’d used in the fake flashback from Adventure 269-270 AND the actual defeat in 270 (possibly my favorite legion story of all time)–as far as I know, the Earthwar story was only Mordru’s third or fourth appearance. It’s weird, He’s the legion’s best villian (IMO) and he was used so infrequently.
Anyway, Levitz’s error was the “magic dirt” theory–it’s not just being buried without air that does it, it’s some special component of dirt–and that completely contradicts his first defeat where Mon-El and Superboy trap him in an airless vault. Um…without any dirt in sight, thanks. Oh well. Earthwar was still a great story (although I remember when it was coming out thinking “Goddamn–this has been going on forever–is it EVER gonna end?” This was just before I started really getting into Marvel. Prior to that, the longest story I remembered was JLA 100-102–a THREE PART adventure! ).
Birds of Prey #84: People who make Lifetime movies take note: this is how you write strong, but vulnerable women.
Legion of Super-Heroes #8: Wasn’t a huge fan of the guest art, but it wasn’t so bad as to be distacting (I’m looking at you Outsiders). I love this series.
SHAZAM! #21: Reprints of two Golden Age stories one featuring Capt. Marvel and world conquering giant rats Planet of the Apes style and other with Marvel Jr. and an invisible city. I found it interesting that any electrity could change CM back to Billy, then again that was Golden Age so that’s probably not canon anymore.
Flash Annual #1: Wally West travels to China to learn how to control the touch of death. Sooo '80s. You could practially hear Eye of the Tiger in the background during the final fight scene.
Green Lantern #61: One of the issues skipped in the TPB “Bapistism of Fire.” Kyle and then girlfriend then Darkstar Donna Troy have a picnic on Mars. Kalibak and several dog solider crash the party and ass-kicking ensues.
On Friday I got two TPB She-Hulk #1-6 and Kingdom Come. Haven’t gotten to them yet though.
No, you have your opinion based on your analyzes of the evidence. It is no more valid than mine as mine opinion is backed up by available evidence. Magic tiara, magic hammer. Both should have the same affect on Superman neither of which is good for the man of steel.
You’re still not getting it. You say the two incidents contradict each other. Fine. Is there an explanation that fits both incidents as written? Yes. Is the explanation plausible? Yes. Does it contradict anything in established canon? No. Can the two incidents therefore exist in the same continuity without a contradiction occuring? Yes.
You’re not obliged to accept the specific explanation, but to state that the two incidents definitely contradict one another, there must be no reasonable explanation that reconciles them. There exists at least one such explanation, therefore there is no provable contradiction. It’s not an issue of opinion.
I’ve heard that Alex Ross did the lion’s share of the plotting work. Waid mostly just wrote the dialogue and rounded out some details (like the Martian Manhunter, that was all Waid). But Waid’s among the finest to ever write a superhero yarn. Check out his run on Flash, especially the “Return of Barry Allen”.
As for the Spectre, he knew that it had come to a point were he had to choose and judge some party (if he chose not to decide he’d still have made a choice). It was the apocolypse, but who would win? Let the metahumans run wild, let Superman’s authoritarianism rule, or kill them all and let the meek inherit the Earth? He decided he was too far removed, so he passed the buck to Norman, who passed it to Superman, who passed it to Billy. Who finally did something, dammit.
Still, both Waid and Ross borrowed liberally details and plot points from Alan Moore’s TWILIGHT OF THE SUPERHEROES proposal to come up with KINGDOM COME.
Well, Waid did a bit more than that. Waid’s knowlege of DC history is second to… mebbe three, four people. This is because his first editing job? Who’s Who In The DC Universe.
You can see things in there that showed up later. Quicksilver, for one. (Max Mercury)
Without taking sides in the specific debate, I disagree with this in principle. I don’t believe we’re obligated to accept any given writer’s published story if it’s too far out of whack even if it’s published and ‘in-story’. I certainly don’t believe there’s any obligation to accept a theory someone’s propounding on the web.
I’m fine with saying “A contradicts B and B was dumb so I’ll just ignore B” Some things aren’t worth an explanation.The “Bruce Wayne’s retarded, homicidal psycho-killer older brother who showed up at least 2 times pre-Crisis that Bruce (as an adult) essentially murders*” contradiction comes right to mind.
Yeah, someone could come up with an explanation that Dr. Moon and Hugo Strange brainwashed Bruce into thinking that he had an older brother and Bruce pretended to give his fake-brother to Deadman because he knew it was really a clone of a space-phantom…etc. but I’d rather just say “Nope. Didn’t happen. It was a dream, a hoax, an imaginary story.”
The two concepts contradict one another and no matter how good or reasonable the explanation for the contradiction between “Bruce is an only child and would never commit murder” and “Bruce has an older brother that Bruce more-or-less murdered” is I’m still not going to buy it. Ditto to the “Superboy lets his parents suffer the agonizing final moments of kryptonite poisoning for all eternity rather than beam 'em into the Phantom Zone” one or “Krypton was blown up by space-pirate terrorists rather than the ‘unstable core’ reason” or who knows how many others. There’s no explanation I’d accept as reasonable for any of these.
Fenris
*IIRC, Bats told Deadman “Hey, just take his body forever. I don’t mind and it gets a psycho out of circulation” more or less. That’s close enough to murder as to make no difference.
I chose my words very carefully - you’re welcome to hate such seeming contradictions or out of character actions. You can even reject them, personally. What you can’t do is assert that they “factually”*, provably contradict one another, unless there is no plausible explanation to reconcile them.
In the fictional sense.
It’s especially sticky for actions that seem “out of character”, because we can’t see inside these characters’ heads. If Batman were to shoot one of his Rogue’s Gallery, I’d be right there with you screaming bloody murder, saying that he shouldn’t do it. It would seem grossly out of character. It seems contradictory, but it is all but impossible to prove it is a contradiction. Maybe Batman just snapped?
Of course I can make that assertion. The only ‘facts’ are those that are printed on-page, in story. I disagree strongly with your ‘no plausible explanation’ standard. Plausible explanations are fan-theories, not ‘facts’ in this context.
IMO, if the explanation isn’t in print in the story (letter columns, fan theories, author’s interviews, etc don’t count) then it’s all theory and the factual (on print, in story) contradiction stands. How often have fan theories, author’s interviews, etc been tossed out the window without ever seeing print? I have comic trade magazines (Comics Reader, etc) from the '70s where Byrne and Claremont talk about how that new Iron Fist villian Sabretooth will turn out to be Wolverine’s father!"…um…but he’s not and (IIRC) never was. There were Legion fan-theories to explain why Element Lad never dated (the theory was that he was gay…after all his uniform was pink, right? :rolleyes: Hey, it was the '70s. People weren’t as enlightened). Then Paul Levitz introduced main babe Shavugn(sp) Erin. Hence the fan-theory was wrong. (Then the fans got ahold of the book and sort-of reintroduced the theory in print. Which I ignore 'cause it was an awful story. But I digress. )
To use the dreadful Batman’s brother example, the only "in story’ facts are A) Bruce Wayne is an only child and doesn’t condone murder and B) in two stories, Bruce Wayne has an insane older brother that he allowed to be murdered. This is a contradiction. Most people who care about/are aware of the story (all four of us! ) assume that story happened on “Earth-B”* and that’s a reasonable explanation. But despite that, it’s still just a fan theory and even if Paul (Editor in Chief) Levitz said in an interview that it occurred on Earth-B, it’d still be a theory. The only way it stops being a contradiction ‘factually’ is if there was an in-story explanation (Batman Earth-1 travels to Earth-B to hunt down the Earth-B Batman, for example.)
A major Marvel contradiction/error was during the Clone Saga. In a Spider-Man annual before the Clone saga occurred, Gerry Conway point-blank had the High Evolutionary state that there was never any Spider-Clone or Gwen Clone–Miles Warren had created a couple of viruses that turned people into either Gwen or Peter when infected. At the end of the story, the Gwen Clone was actually cured and reverted to a short, dumpy curley haired woman. The Clone saga completely ignored the Conway story, and both the Gwen-clone (and, weirdly the dead Spider-Clone who’s body was thrown into a live blast furnace–we saw smoke coming out of the smokestack) showed up with no explanation given, ever. I can come up with a couple of possible explanations and I’m sure you can to, but my position is that until and unless it’s addressed in the story, the contradiction stands.
Fenris
*IE, it was written by Bob “Continuity? Who cares?” Haney, and thus happened on Earth B(for Bob)" like so many of his stories.
) to magic: Mordru was broadcasting a low level “Give up. Mordru commands you to come to him.” signal. The rest of the Legion rolled their eyes and thought it an annoyance, Superboy became a mind-numbed zombie who had to be restrained. The rest of the story still rocked though.**
Just a good old fashioned Spidey story. Bit of brains. Bit of action. Loads of wisecracks. This issue reminded me of why I read Spider Man in the first place.