More the later.
Sucks to be “you”.
Oh, c’mon, that’s like blaming a rape victim for being dressed provocatively! :dubious: :rolleyes: :smack: (ETA: I then saw the warning. Let me know if this is inappropriate.)
There are places where people, or certain people, don’t belong. North Korea and Americans is one of them.
I just took a closer look at his name. Otto Warmbier? You sure that isn’t a pseudonym? 
“The Vice Guide to North Korea” is a fascinating documentary by VICE. Although NK is careful about admitting journalists, VICE managed to get in as tourists. Link:
In parts, host Shane Smith is told quite bluntly by the North Koreans escorting his group to stop filming something. In very quiet asides to the camera, he indicates that a stint in a North Korean jail could be the result of continuing to film, and the camera shuts off.
It seems to me that if the North Koreans don’t want you to do something in their country, whether it is stealing a banner or filming something they don’t want filmed, then it is not a smart idea to do it. I don’t think Warmbier is a moron for going there–heck, VICE was curious, so they went–but I do think he was a moron for trying to steal something while he was there.
This is the tour company he used. It includes prices:
A) “Young Pioneers” in a Cyrillic style font? I got a bad feeling about this. (Not all the countries they go to are Communist or ex-Commie)
B)
Uh…huh.
Assuming the guy actually did steal a banner (and remember, forced confessions are practically a national passtime there, so I’ll hold judgement on whether he did do it), I’m sure he’ll be thrilled to hear how “super-friendly and accomdating” their forced labor camps are. :rolleyes:
It’s also a supervolcano. A North Korean plot, no doubt …
Generally, I agree with the OP, too.
And, to look on the bright side, think of the great story this guy’s gonna have [del]if[/del] when he gets home.
Something to keep in mind is very few American citizens detained in North Korea have ever actually been sent to hard labor, but several of them have received the sentence. They typically continue being detained in a hotel with very limited freedom of movement until the United States sends a high ranking official to come retrieve them.
These incidents are often timed to coincide with times when the North wants to “deescalate” things with the United States. I won’t say the Americans who have been detained have always been 100% innocent, in fact from my reading on them it appears most or all of them did actually break the law. But I suspect a lot of Americans visiting North Korea break laws because it’s very easy to break the law in North Korea, it’s just they only bother detaining you when they need an American handy.
Only about 12 Americans since 1996 have been detained in North Korea, and they’ve been held for an average of 175 days. Kenneth Bae was held the longest by far (at roughly a third of the total number of detention days for all detainees), and that’s almost certainly because Bae was pretty deeply involved in North Korea so the regime saw him very different from ordinary American tourists they’ve held. For one, he actually set up business operations in North Korea (based out of China, he organized missionary tours into North Korea), and the fact that he was a dual American-South Korean citizen hurt him as well as they viewed him as more South Korean than American. That isn’t always predictive, though, Euna Lee was born in South Korea but was generally treated more like a typical American detainee (she was released after a relatively short period, when Bill Clinton went to secure her release, and despite a sentence of hard labor she was never transferred to a labor camp.)
I believe Bae is also the only American citizen to actually be sent to a labor camp, albeit he was sent to a special prison where he worked on a farm in conditions significantly nicer than the “typical” North Korean prison camps that most of the horror stories come from. So he was sent to more of a specialized facility designed for more light punishments (I’m not sure who the North Koreans normally send there, maybe persons who are connected well enough that it’s decided they shouldn’t be sent to the “bad” camps, or perhaps the facility was built solely for Bae, who knows.)
I’m generally extremely dubious of our national interest in going to any lengths to repatriate Americans who voluntary go to dangerous places. I’d be happy if the strongest State Department warnings essentially said, “Travel here and you’re on your own, Bucko!”
Unless there is some huge as yet unseen factor, such as this guy being a CIA agent, he pushes the furthest end of the curve. He oughtn’t have gone there, and if he chose to, he oughtn’t have done something so stupid. Sucks to be him. Not one scintilla of American attention or interest ought to be committed to earning his release. The only appropriate response ought to be to publicize his case to inform potential travelers, “Don’t be like this idiot!”
Well, at least he is not getting death by starving dogs, or death by anti aircraft gun.
Otto should consider himself one lucky Warmbier.
I don’t understand the censure for Warmbier. For one thing curiosity how people in places like North Korea live is a good thing and more people should be on trips like these (I traveled to the Soviet Union (as it then was), admittedly much saner than North Korea but still a dictatorship multiple times in the 1980s/1990, actually entered the USSR and left the CIS on the last occasion, and it did broaden my mind).
The contents of his confession are ludicrous (why should anyone offer such a bounty for something a replica of which they’d get manufactured much cheaper in South Korea?) and should be dismissed as a standard propaganda-obsessed state forced confession.
Also fate has already dealt him a crap hand with his last name, so I hope the US does spend some political capital on him.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. This was not an attempt to divert the discussion to another issue, but rather to introduce intellectual rigor and logical consistency to this one.
The central question raised by the OP was essentially: “in a circumstance where someone suffers grossly disproportionate punishment for his crime but that punishment is the direct result of his own reckless actions, to what extent is sympathy for the victim’s plight ameliorated by the fact that he foolishly brought it on himself?” And my point was that this situation is not unique to the specific case cited by the OP, and there are other well-known instances which raise the same essential question. Thus it makes sense to test whether and how the positions staked out here would apply in other instances in which the same issue is at stake.
To start a separate discussion of those other instances, such that people could consider each one in isolation and arrive - whether individually or collectively - at positions which are logically inconsistent and driven by divergent emotions and popular passions, would defeat the entire purpose.
I agree. I can understand the interest about traveling to North Korea. I don’t know if I would ever go, but I understand the appeal. And the confession does sound fake. I could understand people from home wanting him to take pictures, or maybe leave behind a Bible or something else like that, but why would someone want him to take a sign and offer so much money for it?
He is being used as a pawn, and I hope the US gets him back without too much trouble. I don’t think extraordinary measures need to be taken, but I hope that measures are taken.
And while I don’t think American citizens need to be forbid from going to NK, maybe more guidelines or rules need to be made. The tour groups should really, REALLY make sure that all tourists understand that they need to stay in line. Make sure that they understand that if you do something that prompt a slap on the wrist in the US, that the consequences are much harsher in NK and you aren’t protected just because you are an American. That if you aren’t sure if you should do something or not, don’t do it. And even if drinking is allowed, you should not do it, just to be sure that you don’t even appear to go over the line in any way.
Curiosity may generally be a good thing, but there are reasonably anticipated costs associated with some risks. When one chooses to act on their curiosity, they ought to anticipate limits on the extent to which other people/entities wish to bear those costs.
This guy made a choice, now he is bearing the costs. End of equation. I can GUARANTEE that I will never be arrested in North Korea, and that no one will ever suggest that the US ought to in any way align its posture to encourage my release.
I’d probably be arrested for refusing to bow to the Kim statues.
Read something on that the other day. Tour group hits the big war memorial with statues of the Kims. Tour guide tells group that North Korea defeated America all on it’s own with no help from anyone. (Ha!) Then asks “Who here is an American? Go pick up the flowers, take them to the monument and bow.”
Um, not only NO, but FUCK NO.
“Look, see how contrite the Americans are and how much they respect our Fearless Leaders?”
IIRC, those outfits were the ones offering tours to a particular resort area. Those tours stopped when a South Korean woman was killed by a North Korean soldier when the SK apparently strayed into a restricted area.
This is obviously a confession concocted by the North Koreans for domestic consumption. It hits all of standard points. Most people in the West are starving just like the people in North Korea. They are ruled by religious extremists, who are consumed with Jealousy of North Korea and so will pay great amounts of money to bring even the most modest shame to the Korean regime.
Yes it seems ludicrous to us, but then so does Kim Jong Il’s 11 holes in one the first time he played golf.
Are foreigners required to bow?
Yeah. As to why an American would want to visit North Korea, this is pretty much it. I must admit, there is a part of me that would like to go just out of a sense of morbid curiosity. But on the other hand:
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I can’t afford it.
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As has already been pointed out, I would be spending money that benefits an evil regime, and
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There is a non-zero chance I could end up in Mr. Warmbier’s situation. (And while I would never do something as stupid as try to steal a propaganda poster, that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be framed for something.)
So, no, North Korea is out.