Fishermen petition their patron saint. They do not, in the modern sense of the word, pray to them. Unless you mean “pray” in the general “ask” definition, in which case you pray to everyone you ever ask anything of.
Kirk
Yes, I would say that some ignorant people would probably consider themselves to worship the saints. And yes, many so-called saints never even existed, or were older pagan gods. At least, some of the early ones.
That doesn’t change official Catholic doctrine, however.
“That doesn’t change official Catholic doctrine, however”
It however does call into question how much Catholic practice follows Catholic doctrine.
Yes, I know His is getting more than she bargained for and has a lot of questions to answer. I’m also feeling a little guilty that she didn’t start this thread but had it…uh, forced upon her (no offense to Eve).
As far as saints and images, I think we should bear in mind that until fairly recently, much of the population was illiterate. Icons, statues and other artwork served as visual aids for those unable to read the Bible. Asking Mary or St. Vladimir or whoever to petition God for you was/is no different than asking a priest to pray for you. I know that some Protestant churches have “prayer circles” where they pray for others; is that so different?
The decoration of churches, the singing, the incense, are all used to instill a properly reverent frame of mind in the worshippers. In Orthodoxy, God is considered to be right there in the church with you, so to make his house as beautiful as possible is considered only right and respectful.
Could someone please tell me what OP means? I’m tired of guessing.
Opening Post, i.e., the post that started this thread.
I’d like to say that I don’t recall saying Catholics are going hell. Only God knows what a person has done in his or her heart with the provision of salvation He provided. I just said I didn’t agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic church. You are right that I don’t defend my faith well. My beliefs aren’t likely to change, though, as they are deep in my heart and I believe in my heart the Lord has revealed His truth to me about some of these things you’re talking about through His word. But I shouldn’t say much since I can’t answer or don’t know how to answer all your questions.
I’d like to say that I don’t recall saying Catholics are going hell. Only God knows what a person has done in his or her heart with the provision of salvation He provided. I just said I didn’t agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic church. You are right that I don’t defend my faith well. My beliefs aren’t likely to change, though, as they are deep in my heart and I believe in my heart the Lord has revealed His truth to me about some of these things you’re talking about through His word. But I shouldn’t say much since I can’t answer or don’t know how to answer all your questions.
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach!
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach!
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach!
There’s nothing wrong with admitting you disagree with the Catholic church-I mean, if you agreed with it completely, then you’d probably be a Catholic.
There’s nothing “wrong” with disagreeing with the Catholic Church (please note the spelling and capitalization, it is a formal name), there is a great deal wrong with supporting Jack T. Chick.
His, Jack T. Chick is a liar. A proven liar. A liar even real Protestants spit upon and have nothing to do with. So why do you support him?
He lies about Catholicism. Rampantly.
He lies about Christian history.
He lies about the Bible.
He lies about Islam.
He lies about Buddhism.
He lies about Dungeons & Dragons.
He lies about the mythical “rapture.”
He lies about everything he discusses.
So why do you support him? Why support a proven liar, a disreputable man that no honorable person would ever have anything to do with?
Kirk
Fine, let me nail it down to this.
You have a personal problem. You tell your close Christian friend, “I’m worried about this. Pray for me.”
Is that wrong? No. Christians are encouraged to pray for one another. A Christian doesn’t somehow avoid going directly to God by asking a friend to pray for him. If anything, I’d wager it increases God’s presence, since Christ said “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am present.”
Are we ok with this so far? Christians can ask other Christians to pray for them? Good.
So what’s wrong with asking Christians in heaven to do the same? Because that’s what Sainthood comes down to. It’s the church’s declaration that someone is in heaven.
…you may, of course, disagree on whether 1) people go to heaven when they die, or whether they’re all “asleep” until the Last Judgment, and whether 2) the Catholic Church has the power to make a declaration that someone is in heaven.
(And note this does not not not mean the Church determines who is in or isn’t in heaven. It does mean that through miracles, signs and investigation, the Church can make a statement that it has knowledge of a saint’s arrival in heaven.)
But assuming those two things are the case…then me praying to St. Thomas More that I might pass the bar exam or to the Virgin Mary that my mother’s cancer doesn’t come back has no practical difference between me going to Polycarp or Guinistasia or what-have-you with the same prayer request.
I don’t remember who said it, but, CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY! WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO BEAT THAT INTO YOUR HEADS!?!?!?
okay, my rant is over.
Just got this in my e-mail (I subscribe to a Buddhist “Daily Wisdom” e-mail list:
There’s a message in there, no doubt.
And here’s a message to any mod who wishes to assist: Please be so kind as to add a close parenthesis above between list and *:[/]. Thanks!
Drat. I give up on coding.
At least for tonight.
Thanks
His4ever: I appreciate that you are probably having a little trouble keeping up with the barrage of posts in a number of threads, but I would be most grateful if you would be kind enough to fill us in on the details of how and why you came to occupy the position of believing that (your interpretation of) the Bible is the absolute word of God or indeed that the Bible itself is completely reliable and literal (if indeed this is your view).