There are alot of people who just lie in wait for Xians to mention something about homosexuality, just because they get a kick out of harassing someone who asserts that particular Biblical position that you do, His4Ever. If you’re gonna stick around on this board and occasionally discuss that, just be really, really nice about it and expect nonetheless to get called names.
I’ve heard alot of people who are (not by your standard, but they call themselves) Christians, who are also homosexual and engage in homosexual acts. They have various arguments to reconcile the two. I have never met a fundamentalist or someone who believes in biblical inerrancy reconcile the two, so probably the view shared by you and Chick, though a little more nicely worded by you than that espoused by Jack Chick, is shared by most fundies. That means you maybe have a half-dozen allies on that issue at most, so tread carefully.
No, I understand the meaning of “holy Catholic church” in the creed; I was brought up Lutheran (although with occasional attendance at the Russian Orthodox church).
I was just wondering if Pentecostal churches are an exception (neither my boyfriend nor his parents ever remember reciting the Creed or the Lord’s Prayer) or if this is the common practice among fundamentalist Christians.
I got to see several a few years ago. Some dolt was trying to “save” my Catholic history professor, and kept leaving those hate-comics on his door. He let me have them. I burt them. It was fun.
You know, kinda like the way fundie loons burn Harry Potter books and non-King Jimbo Bibles.
I have read accounts by gay Christians who were struggling to overcome their same-sex attraction. Some stated that they knew they would never be able to be attracted to the opposite gender, so they were opting for a life of celibacy. Are you saying that you feel that their conversion was not genuine? In fact, are you saying that real Christians never struggle?
Of course, anyone with a lick of life experience knows better. Christians do horrible things all the time. Why? Because they’re people.
In your opinion. Other, far better, and more learned, people than you disagree.
I know dozens of gay christians. You wouldn’t recognize them because you’ve been brainwashed and wear blinders.
Where the Hell do you get off? It’s a choice? How do you know? How do you know?
I know if its a choice or not. How? I’m gay. And I know for a fact that I didn’t choose to be. You don’t know. I do. It’s my life, so don’t you ever try to tell me the lie that I somehow CHOSE to be Gay. Because I DIDN’T.
Yes you do. Your whole religion is based on hate. Hate of homosexuals. Of non-Christians. Of real Christians (Catholics, Episcopalians, other real, non-fundie Christians). Of anyone bright enough not to fall for Jack Chick’s lies.
No, but there are gay people who have been perverted by twisted hate cults like yours into living a lie and denying who they were made to be. And there’s no such thing as a gay lifestyle. Just like there’s no such thing as a “fundamentalist” Christian.
I’m sorry if that’s hard for you to follow. If you prefer, I’ll sketch it out in a pathetically drawn-and-written cartoon for you, if that’s more your speed.
Actually, I’m grateful to you, His4Ever for your forthrightness, for in being so open you reveal the true face of American fundamentalist Christianity.
You are, of course, quite wrong, but there’s not much point in showing you the prevalence of homosexuality in every age and every culture, nor would there be any point in showing the many examples of homosexuality because you wouldn’t listen. If homosexuality is a choice, that will come as news to the many young men and women who have tried desperately to change their orientation. The examples of “ex-gays” you point to are merely sad, self-loathing creatures desperately trying to conform to your unrealistic standards.
I could also point out the selective nature of your faith, condemning homosexuality but not mixing two different kinds of cloth or serving milk and flesh in the same dish. No doubt you would have some reason why God lets you disobey the laws of ritual cleanliness, but enforces the Levitical death penalty for gay folk.
And the Bible contradicts itself in many places. You should look at the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible, but you won’t. As I have pointed out in another thread, fundamentalist Christians close their eyes and ears to the real world.
Just be aware that it is exactly this inflexible attitude that leads to the murders of folks like Matt Shepard and Brandon Teena.
Oh, of course not! I know full well that Stalin heard about it from fellow students. I’m just pointing out that Chick can’t even get basic facts correct!
Well, I printed out the one on liberation theology to show MY Catholic history professor, just for a lark. (He’s a leftist liberation Catholic). He read it and said it sounds either like some moron, or possibly some person who is so anti-Christian that he’s trying to make money by making Christians look bad.
Personally, I could buy the latter. I mean, Chick does more harm to Christianity than Anton la Vey or Alistair Crowley or whoever.
The one thing you can say about “homosexuality is a choice” is this: the orientation isn’t, the lifestyle is. To be utterly fair and put the best spin on the fundie viewpoint, just to follow it out… engaging in homosexual acts is a choice, just like for us heteros it’s a choice whether to engage in heterosexual relations.
Now, should one expect a person with a sexual attraction to a certain gender to abstain? Probably not. Still, many heterosexual people choose a life of celibacy. Homosexual people could do the same. I wouldn’t consider it fair that homosexuals are relegated to a life of mandated celibacy under that system of thought, whereas we heteros are allowed all the sex we want within the sacrament of marriage.
Anyway, if you define homosexuality (or any sexuality for that matter) as the orientation, then it’s not a choice. If you define it as the behaviour pattern of engaging in sexual acts consistent with that orientation, then it is a choice. So I’d like to see a clarification on that point from His4Ever’s perspective.
And of course, non-Catholic Christians would never dream of putting up symbolic artifacts of their faith, like, say, crosses around their home, or the outline of a fish on their bumper sticker.
I’m of the belief that Jack Chick tracts have driven away more teetering believers than they’ve “saved.” I can honestly say that I’ve never spoken with anyone who has treated JC tracts with anything less than disdain, or, moreso, derision.
I guess I think that Jack has about as much chance of saving/converting people to Christianity as Louis Farrakan has of converting Jews. Attempting to change people’s behavior by attacking their basic priciples and beliefs with words that don’t pass though the “uh, wait-a-minute” filter seems counterproductive.
In any event, I appreciate His4ever’s attempt to remain non-confrontational in the midst of such a crowd of skeptics, such as we a generally are.
Jack Chick prefers to print his name as “Jack T. Chick” on his tracts, so that his initials are JTC instead of JC. That way, there’s no chance of mistaking his initials for an abbreviation of Jesus Christ.
If God really hated gays, He would not have given us Esprix. The love and joy that we see in his posts is the true Word Of God(copyright, patent pending, accept no substitutes.).
Gobear- Exactly. Being Jewish, I’m doing my best to keep all the commandments. At 600+, this can be tough. But I’ve never understood how some Christians can disregard all the dietary, and sartorial restrictions, but point to the section of the list on homosexuality. You can’t say ‘These rules are meaningless.’ and then use one of them to for your purposes.
PolyCarp-Exactly. I HATE it when anyone says “The Bible tells me…”! What does God tell you, you directly and personally? If you don’t speak to God directly, what business do yuou have telling anyone what God wants? I’m with Polycarp. I don’t believe in the Torah. I believe in God.
I’m gonna mirror these sentiments with a slight twist. While I do follow the teachings of the Bible and the Catholic Church (as I see both as speaking with God’s authority), I try not to give a “sieg heil” while I’m at it. That is, I make it a point to figure out exactly why God makes rules as he does, rather than following them blindly and risk projecting my own prideful interpretation onto something I’m just bound to get wrong.
My religion is a way of life, not a set of rules. The rules (i.e., the ten commandments) are a good derivation of Christ’s model as a teaching tool, but the risk of putting rules first is to create an inflexible, legalistic lifestyle that’s impossible to live up to. I’ve known Christians who absolutely never take a life, even in their own self-defense or for the defense of others, because “thou shalt not kill” is in the Bible. I’ve known of Christans who think the father in the film Life is Beautiful was a bad man because he lied to his son about being in a Nazi death camp. I’ve known Christians who refuse to have any contact with the opposite sex, because it’s too close to premarital sex for their comfort.
In other words: sheesh. God created rules to allow people to function properly, not because he thought it’d be more interesting and we’re sworn to obedience. I don’t go around killing people because it’s not within me to do so, not because Exodus 20:13 prohibits it.
You are, of course, quite wrong, but there’s not much point in showing you the prevalence of homosexuality in every age and every culture, nor would there be any point in showing the many examples of homosexuality among different species of animals because you wouldn’t listen.
His4ever, I respect your disagreement with Catholic doctrine and dogma. I disagree with some of it too, that’s why I’m a Lutheran though I was raised R.C. Fact is Luther never wanted to leave the R.C. Church but only to reform it. There is a wide gulf between that and Jack Chick’s rabid Catholic bashing and wild eyed conspiracy theories. Some of his tracts make the R.C. church to be the architechts of the third reich and the holocaust. The R.C. church as an institution has a lot to answer for in history but they are not the “whore of Babylon” Jack would have you believe. If what you know about the R.C. church comes from Jack’s tracts you are terribly misinformed.
Could you please tell me what IMHO means? Why should I not post again? I didn’t bring the subject up, I was asked what I thought. Do you want me to lie? Anyway, we will not agree on this subject so let’s just move on.
