In theory that’s true. In actual fact, the connection between Social Security payments and levies is, well, pretty tenuous. There’s no Social Security pension fund. SS payments are thrown into general revenue, and payouts come from the Feds’ general bucket of money. There’s no rule that your benefits run out if you live too long. If you don’t contribute enough you end up qualifying for other government programs. It’s a pension plan to some extent, but to a great extent it’s just another welfare program.
Anyone earning minimum wage in this country is not paying income taxes. Some of their check may be deducted, but the portion paid to income taxes would be refunded at the time their taxes were filed in April.
You make an excellent point here. There are good honest hard working willing people who fall on hard times and I hope we are the kind of society who reach out with a helping hand. I also think you’re correct about the assumptions people make and why, to an extent. It’s really unfair to judge someone without knowing who they are or what they’ve been through. Once you get to know someone you have a better idea about their character.
The other side of that coin is there are people who milk the system and could do more for themselves but just don’t. Years ago when my kids were little my wife and I lived in subsidized housing for a year or so. I saw single Mom’s who were working themselves through school toward a better life and those who’s live in boyfriends made good money but still allowed the state to pay the rent and grocery bills so they could afford a nicer car and other goodies.
My son’s employee has a good job and was getting plenty of overtime but for some reason the state’s welfare system doesn’t count overtime because it’s not consistent income, so taxpayers paid for repairs on this guys home while he bought a snowmobile.
A guy I used to work with has a son who was dangerously premature and almost died. For reasons I don’t understand he now qualifies for a $600 check each month which he brags about before he goes home early.
My sister in law volunteered to help people who were struggling to handle their budgets better. One of the first things she ran into was their unwillingness to give up things that weren’t necessary like cell phones, cable TV etc.
People do abuse the system and IMO if they’re not encouraged , even pushed, to take responsibility for themselves we encourage abuse and dependence. People who are already responsible adults won’t be hurt by reasonable policies that encourage responsibility.
We won’t have a perfect system. When the rules are broad to take in more people who need help it invites more abuse. When the rules are narrow and rigid to discourage abuse some needy people are left out.
I think the government has every right to limit and set reasonable conditions for those who want and need help. They also have the right to set a maximum amount regardless of number of dependents. That’s not insisting people can’t have more children. It just means they won’t get any more welfare for those children.
I think that varies from state to state and number within the household but you’re right. Hardly a lavish amount if you need it.
I sincerely hope things get better for you and your husband. Again, you’ve made a really good point about the living wage. I work in retail and feel grateful in these times to have a job that pays enough for me to meet my obligations. Over the years I’ve seen retail change. When I first started there were plenty of commissioned salespeople at major companies that earned a decent living. As the years passed and the economy changed those jobs disappeared and companies went to more part time help that offered no benefits and paid a lot less. When more and more jobs pay far less than what a basic existence cost something is wrong with our economy.
Hey!! Aren’t you supposed to answer those questions too?
Here’s what I want to know. Under this plan, will the executives at AIG, Citibank and Bank of America going to be forcibly sterilized? Because if so, this plan has my full support.
I work with people on Section 8 Housing and I’ve seen the system get abused in ways you could not image. There are people having children so they can live on welfare. There are children raised on welfare who are now raising children on welfare. It’s a bad system and one that needs to be demolished and replaced with one that works.
We’ve had to evict Section 8 tenants because they don’t pay their portion of the rent (sometimes for less than $100 a month). We’ve seen welfare people turn down apartments because they didn’t like the neighborhood, the rooms are too small, they don’t have a laundry hookup, they don’t have a yard.
People whose welfare or housing benefits are cut off will fight battles to get them back. If they worked like that in the real world, they would be CEO of the company. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “Well, it’s only a little amount. I shouldn’t have to pay it.”
The worse case I know of is the woman who kept her 17 year old son out of a college scholarship because she would lose her two bedroom apartment if he went away to school. She forced him to go to a junion college and live at home.
ETA: BTW, welfare stats are meaningless. People are encouraged to go on welfare who shouldn’t even be on welfare so they can get off it in a month or two to make the stats look better. “The average stay on welfare is two years,” means absolutely nothing.
Yes, but the details of how that actually works gets pretty complicated. It really is an issue that some people cheat the system.
And we have to deal with it. I’d rather be in a society that helps people when they need it but for the sake of that same society we need to encourage personal responsibility. We can’t ignore the abuses in the name of helping people.
FTR I didn’t see any such assumption
and posting here.
It is GD as you pointed out.
It won’t ever be perfect. There is realistic limit to what we can do for others.
That’s another assumption I didn’t see. Independence and self reliance should be the goal. I think we need guidelines and limits to push people toward these goals and to stop dependence.
Do you think it’s reasonable to ask people to work for the assistance they receive?
Social safety net is a great idea that is incredibly complicated to execute correctly.
I do think there should be limits and I believe that’s been instituted in some states. No required child limits but a cap on how much you receive regardless of dependents.
And some get more back than they actually paid in because of earned income credit. Go figure.
What on earth makes you think this is the case for everyone? I assure you, it is not.
And just because you are, apparently, satisfied with Depo doesn’t mean it is right for everyone (beyond those who are simply allergic, That’s what’s so ‘great’ about shots and implants – if you react badly – and many women do – you get a few months to think about what a horrible decision you made). The side effects of hormonal birth control are nothing to sniff at – telling women they’ve got to sink into clinical depression to keep their kids fed is particularly cruel.
As for the IUD – who pays if a woman’s uterus gets perforated? If it’s Mirena or similar, what if she can’t take the hormones? If it’s copper, what if she can’t take the blood loss?
And, with any of these methods, how will the anti-abortion crowd react if she conceives (and needs an abortion)? Will she get it for free? It would be sort of ridiculous for the government to punish her if she conceives, which can happen purely by accident (and possibly do to their mandated doctors’ screw-ups – and god help the doctors hired for that job, btw), but then deny her a free abortion. Or to deny her funding if she is comfortable with staying off hormonal birth control but having an abortion if necessary.
ETA: I am all for free birth control of every shape and color, including Plan B, abortion and (uncoerced) vasectomies and reversible tubal ligation.
Also, the timing of this thread is sort of odd, in that with the economy being what it is, I’d think a lot of people who previously spoke of ‘crack babies’ and ‘welfare moms’ would finally start to get it – that smart, decent, qualified people can fall on hard times, too, for reasons beyond their control.
I think a more practical solution is just to limit the amount they receive. I couldn’t find it on the web but I believe a former Governor of NJ decided years ago to limit the amount single mothers could get. They got A for one child B for two children and that was the max. If they had more children they still got B. She was heavily criticized as I recall but in a few years statistics revealed the birth rates went down.
I noticed that as well - did this thread fall through a wormhole from the 80’s? Is the OP Morton Downey Jr.? What are we gonna do about the Russian menace or the gay cancer?
I lost my job in November last year but was fortunate enough to find another. A close friend lost hers and was without work for months. She just recently relocated to take a job on the East Coast. We’re the fortunate ones.
There was no welfare when my Dad grew up and the idea just didn’t occur to him. He worked two jobs as long as I can remember and we still struggled.
I worked full time before I was a student and didn’t come upon any “rude awakenings” that I know of. My job isn’t quietly reserved for students, it’s loudly reserved for middle aged men with business degrees. I proved myself worty of the position.
You seem to think that less is expected of me because I am a student, but you are wrong. I am on call all the time, more is expected of me because of the position I hold than anyone else in the restaurant. The only concession I get for being a student is showing up at 4 instead of 3 on two days a week.
I do not now, nor have I ever had, health insurance. If I get sick, I’m sick. No, I’m not living on loans; I borrow only enough to cover tuition and books. I do not live on campus, I do not receive on campus meals or student insurance or any other benefits. I drive 30 minutes to go to classes two days a week, and I pay for my own damn gas. I don’t have a nice mommy to loan me money if my light bill is overdue. I have nobody. This week I will likely run out of shampoo before payday, and will be washing my hair with dish detergent. I know perfectly well how the real world works, and I’d thank you to not assume I’m some sheltered sorority girl holed up in her dorm in her dorm all the time.
The welfare for single mothers is for the children not the mothers.
Children are people too.
Funny that, people assuming they know all about your living situation…
I don’t care if anyone disagrees with it, but I’m not interested in a snark fest. There is no need for hostility, and please do stop assuming that I’m an ignorant sorority chick who has no idea how the world works.
Under the proposed plan, nobody is withholding food and shelter from anybody. No, there are no other means of birth control I could choose because I don’t have insurance and can’t afford to pay a doctor. I could buy condoms I guess, but in this situation we need to use something that can’t be forgotten or discarded.
Sure, free vasectomies for all. I assumed nobody would want to be forced into something semi-permanent, so I didn’t suggest it, but I’d be all for it. In fact, I’d be all for the government offering to give people say, $1000 to have a free vasectomy. That would give the crackheads a bonus for their crack, and keep them from reproducing at the same time. Obviously the non-crackheads could put down a payment on a new car or something.
Sure, free abortions. The public won’t like that, but I’m all for it.
I’ve never seen a public school that actually required uniforms. A local private middle school does though, so they have the kids wear khaki pants and tennis shoes and provde different colored polo shirts for each grade level. Doesn’t sound too difficult.
Go ahead and point out flaws, but knock off the condescending attitude, k?
Then what are we discussing?
Yes, but we can prevent them from having kids while doing so. Do you want crack heads to reproduce? Neither do I.
That’s ridiculous. We live in a civilization. We care for one another, therefore we are civilized. Nobody’s entitled to health care. I’m all for socialized medicine, but nobody’s entitled to anything in this life. I’m not entitled to running water and electricity and food if I don’t pay for them.
I assume nothing of the sort.
I agree. Let’s provide rations instead. MRE’s for everyone!
I don’t really consider those to be 100% reliable either.
No, they will be temporarily sterilized if they want money without getting a job. They don’t have to participate in job training if they don’t want/need it.
No, I don’t see a problem. They can get a different job, and they can still get a loan if the bank is willing.
Who says I should be concentrating on my education? You? Rescuing is perfectly honorable work and I see no reason I should stop doing it just because I’m in college. I can do more than one thing at a time you know.
My next door neighbors were kind enough to keep an eye on my dogs who were left outside in nice weather during the day. I came home from job 1 at 3, fed them, refilled their water, checked up on the rabbits and the cats, and was at job 2 by 5. When I got home one of the dogs came in for the night, the other stayed out because he was a danger to the cats and furniture as a puppy. Now he’s older, so he’s inside too. None of them were neglected by any means.
No, I am not living on loans. I use them to pay tuition and books, and nothing else. I never overborrow. I am certainly paying my own way, as this money will all be coming back out of my pocket after I’ve graduated, and with interest.
No, it’s not, and that’s the point.
If it’s a piss poor system, why dont you suggest something that could improve it instead of picking it apart line by line and shooting every point down as if it were any worse than the way things work now?
Yes, I am seriously ok with that. I value independence but I also recognize that, if I were to fall on hard times, I should make every effort not to burden the rest of society.
I have no such underlying assumptions. My in-laws have been on and off welfare, my mother had public housing when I was a kid but she doesn’t now. There’s no reason to think that people can’t end their cycle of poverty. The system is designed to keep people from digging themselves in further while they are unable to support themselves, and job training and daycare would be provided so they had a better shot at getting back on their feet sooner.
Again, I’m not living on loans. They pay for tuition and books only. I make my own room and board, utilities, internet, phone, gas, food, and vet bills. And you have no reason to assume I’m not making payments–it’s not like there’s a penalty for early payment. Once in a while EdFinancial sends a letter asking if I want to pay toward my loans before graduating, and when they do I usually send them fifty bucks. I’m not relying on borrowed money for daily needs. I’m not doing great, but I’m not living above my means either. Stop assuming things that I haven’t stated and that you have no way of knowing.
Call me crazy, but isn’t the system you proposed the entire point of this thread? It’s perfectly natural for people to shoot down the parts they disagree with. If you wanted dopers to come up with their own new welfare systems, then start a thread soliciting entirely new systems. This one is about yours.