Welfare: what's the answer?

Great Debates
1

I had a lonnnng talk tonight with a friend of mine who works for DHHR. She’s had a rough week, delivering bad news to clients and watching some of her coworkers pack up their offices because they just lost their jobs.

First I need to explain just a bit about the WV welfare system. As it works now, you either have to work or go to school. If you choose to get a job instead of going to school, as soon as you get a job they yank your medical card (they’ll still give your kids one, but not you), and usually they will cut your check and food stamps by at least 30%, sometimes more depending on what you’re making.

If you’re in school, they leave you alone as long as you’re making what they call satisfactory progress. You’ve gotta have good attendance at school (they check), a certain GPA (I can’t remember but it’s not too demanding), and you’ve gotta be full time. (Since you’ve got 5 years to get your ducks in a row, it makes the most sense to go to school so you’ll be able to get a better job in the future.)

So anyhow, my friend tells me tonight about WV’s new budget.

This month, a family of 3 who has no income (so let’s assume they’re in school) gets $553 a month and then about $350 in food stamps.

Starting in August, it will go down to $340 and $371 in food stamps.

See, before all this happened, if you were married the state would give you an extra $100 a month as a “marriage incentive.” Well, they took that away. Then they slashed everybody’s check by 25%. So basically married people are getting cut almost 40% while singles just 25%, although now everyone’s getting the same amount per month.

Not that this is a married vs. single thing.

Rarely do I get pissed off on other people’s behalf, but I have schoolmates who are going to be ruined by this.

Who the hell can live on $340 a month?

Assuming they live in subsidized housing, they MAYBE can pay their rent, utilities, and MAYBE car insurance if they’re lucky. Clothes? Forget it. No car? Bus fare every day to school/work may not be possible. And God help them if they have a baby, as diapers would be out of the question.

This is assuming they played by the rules and had no other income. My friend tells me that EVERYONE, yes, everyone on welfare in this state is cheating in some way. Some have jobs that pay under the table. Others might have family members giving them money. Some, unfortunately, sell a bit of weed.

What I find particularly offensive is that, about a year ago, our governor got caught screwing around on his wife, and it came out that he had taken his mistress to Europe several times on the state’s dime. Why is it that politicans can help themselves to the people’s money and are never required to pay it back when caught?

I’m not a liberal, really. I think people who are able should take care of themselves, get their ass out of bed and go to work, and not have babies they can’t afford.

I also see, though, that some people just need a couple of years of help, and if they can get that help, they can do the above, and the taxes they will eventually pay when they work will more than repay the support they got from the state. (Plus I figure if they never get a decent job to begin with, they’ll NEVER pay income taxes so we may as well encourage people to better themselves.)

The way the system works now, you’re nailed if you get a job. If you stay on welfare and want to survive, you’ve got to cheat.

And now the state wants to give $120 per person, per month to live on?

What are these people thinking?

Do they simply not care? Are they trying to force people to just flat give up and go work at McDonald’s and never try to make their situations better? Do they honestly think people can live on these amounts?

Hell if I know what the answer is, but I know I couldn’t live on $340 a month if I had to.

I don’t think welfare recipients should be given the moon and stars. But dammit if the state is going to have a welfare program, it should do what it is designed to do: help people fix their lives so they can take care of themselves. Why even have a welfare program at all if you’re not going to give people anything to work with? After these cuts, I could easily see why, say, a single mom in college would just say “screw it” and quit school.

So what should be done? Should states just get rid of welfare altogether and let people sink or swim and their kids possibly starve? How much should people be given on a monthly basis? How long should the time limit be? Should it be fixed to where you have to go to school?

Has any state ever come up with a program that works, or are all states as messed up as WV?

2

Yeah, good times… good times. I’ve been there- had a child with health problems limiting my ability to work, thrown in with suddenly being a single mom. I chose to go to school. I WISH I’d had 5 years to do it, here they give you a year. Now you can’t even go to school and not work. After your child’s first birthday, you’re going to work, like it or not.
And I got something like 280 a month in cash, and actually lived on it. Would like to never do that again, thanks. It was very difficult, but it showed me how resourceful and strong I can be when the chips are down.
I’m not gonna go dig up a cite or quote statistics, because I have to go to bed, but let’s say I wouldn’t be surprised if the welfare cuts were one of Dubya’s bright ideas.

3

Good grief. I figured we’d have at least a few posts before someone would start in with the “blame Bush” song and dance. sigh

This is a state thing, in case I didn’t make that clear.

So what course of study did you do? I’ve never heard of anything that takes only a year and allows a decent income (I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m just curious).

4

How is this different from most people not on welfare? Most people I’ve ever met, including myself, also have to work and go to college at the same time. Many women, including myself, also routinely go back to work at least part-time once a baby is three months old. Why should people on welfare not have to do the same?

I’m reasonably sympathetic to someone trying to make a living in this economy but I really hate the whinning some welfare advocates routinely put out. Having a baby when you didn’t get a proper education or a self supporting job should not entitle you priviledges denied to the rest of society.

As for the OP, are loans available to help with expenses? Wouldn’t that help?

I don’t agree with those who say there should be a time limit on welfare. If you need it, you need it. But unless you’re truly disabled you should have to work for it. The welfare system should provide people with room, board, clothing, transportation and a little pocket money. In return people should be required to show up each day for whatever work the state needs doing.

If you want something more you have to get it yourself. If you want a college degree unless you’re going into a field like nursing which requires full time study you should be required to work part-time just like every other person in America. If you have a baby you get six weeks off and then you go back to work just like everyone else.

I think that is a reasonable and fair system.

5

As for the OP, are loans available to help with expenses? Wouldn’t that help?

I don’t have a dog in this fight. But I’ve gotta ask: loans from WHO? And if you’re living on $340 a month, how are you going to pay back said loans?

If you want a college degree unless you’re going into a field like nursing which requires full time study you should be required to work part-time just like every other person in America.

Last I checked all college degrees required full time study. It’s supposed to be, what? Two hours of study for every class?

Besides, if you’re not enrolled in school full time, you can’t get financial aid.

6

From the federal government like student loans. And you pay them back when you graduate. Otherwise I think the government should set up a program like the one I outlined. We’ll pay for all the basics in return for your decision to work everyday.

I’ve known quite a few people including myself who were able to attend college full time two or three days a week and work the other days or on weekends. You can take 4-5 classes each term and work when you’re not studying.

Work study programs are hardly uncommon.

This is different than programs like nursing that require someone to attend full time from 9-5 every single day. It depends on the subject.

I also know quite a few teachers who work full time AND study for their master’s degrees in accordance with state requirements. I’m not sure why someone on welfare can’t do the same thing. Or can’t take out loans like the rest of us.

7

Not to be argumentative, but are you sure? Don’t the states get their welfare/human services budget funds from the federal government, or at least a significant portion thereof? If the fed has cut the amount it sends to the states, the states then have to cut programs. Perhaps it’s up to the state to which program(s) the cuts will be applied which would account for variation from state to state.

8

Three hours of study for each hour of class. The problem is that many students work so many hours a week that they can’t balance this out.

9

My rather limited experience in the field of welfare has mostly to do with SSI (Supplemental Security Income), specifically working with mentally disabled people (schizophrenics like myself, etc).

Put bluntly, without SSI, we’re bums on the street. For many people with mental conditions, SSI is the only thing giving them a cheap apartment and some food (not to mention Medicare paying for meds here). In the Bay Area, some people can get up to $800-900 a month - a lot compared to the West Virginia sums, but with the housing market the way it is in Northern California, most people I know on it can barely stay off the street and feed themselves with it. Most spend their lives in group homes. It isn’t a pleasant way to live.

Just remember that there aren’t very many people on welfare who WANT to be on welfare, despite whatever stereotypes you can make up about lazy folks mooching off the system.

As for the regular “down on my luck need help working” type welfare… well, loans hurt in the long run. I wish I could say that education is the answer… but really, vo tech is much better (with some language courses for the immigrants). Now you’re basically talking about student loans for community/vo tech college, an increasingly popular method.

10

Sorry you really don’t get it. First off as a teacher you are not trying to live on 300$ a month. Living on the edge takes more time. Everything takes time.

Second you probably have transportation to get to places. If you have a car on welfare worth more than a certain amount you have to sell it. This means public transportation or an unreliable car. All those great deals you can get at the grocery store don’t work in those instances.

Thirdly, most teachers are not single parents. Most welfare recipients are. If you think this makes no difference you really are really clueless.

Fourthly and finaly how the hell do you expect someone on welfare to get a loan? Um from where? You realise you get loans from banks right? Even the loans you get for university have to be applied for. So far haven’t seen the government guarenteeing loans for GEDs. Most people on welfare have little access to standard banking practices.

11

I’m not sure why someone on welfare can’t do the same thing. Or can’t take out loans like the rest of us.

Sounds great … but are student loans considered income? If so, you’d be screwing yourself to take them.

Going to school and working at least part time is the ideal, IMHO, but if the state is going to punish you as soon as you get a job (taking away medical card, childcare, etc.), why bother?

Here’s what I don’t get. Say you work part time and make … oh, $300 a month. The state yanks your medical card. With your $300 a month income, you’re suddenly magically able to pay for whatever medications you’re on, out of pocket. And/or they yank your daycare funding: are you supposed to take your kids to school with you? If you were getting $340 a month, that’s slashed by a third. So you’re grossing $300 a month at work, you see maybe $250 of that, the state yanks your medical card and childcare and slashes your food stamps and check by 1/3. How exactly are you coming out ahead if you work part time, then?

12

If you have a car on welfare worth more than a certain amount you have to sell it.

Sort of true in WV. If your car is worth more than $2,000, you lose your medical card. (They don’t care how you get the car, either: so if, say, your grandmother dies and leaves you a semi decent car, you’re fubarred.) They won’t mess with anything else, but apparently having a car worth more than 2k means you can afford your own healthcare.

I can see being suspicious of somebody who is driving a 2004 model, but a $2,000 limit is just nuts.

13

Then, these people would have to work everyday like you in exchange for a roof, food and some pocket money? How would that be fair?
And besides, wouldn’t it deprive from a regular job and normally paid job the people who would have otherwise done this work?

14

Well not an American state obviously - have you actually looked at other models? This system works, leaves people with some dignity and does not lower the standard of living, even though the tax rates are high.
The Danish welfare system

The American idea of welfare is scary and resembles something from a third world country. Unfortunately our own system here is freefalling down the American path at a rate of knots. Sadly the earning or learning doctrine has a firm foothold on both sides of the political fence here, we can only hope that a humane and fair welfare system somehow survives. The majority of Austalians do not want an American style welfare (well non welfare really) system, but are constantly being sold the American view. It almost seems unbelievable that we are told systems like the Danish one not only don’t work, but don’t exist any more

15

I went through a 9-month Medical Assisting Certification program. I make a decent wage for Tucson, which has a low cost of living. I don’t see daycare mentioned here anywhere. Fortunately, I only have one child in daycare. Once I started working I didn’t qualify for assistance with that, and it’s been a hellacious struggle to pay it. I know people with more than one child in daycare, and really, I don’t know how they do it.
I do not, however, agree with people deciding when others should have children. To me, that’s a personal decision. When I got pregnant, I certainly didn’t foresee hard financial times, that came after. Welfare reform was decent 5 years ago, but gets harder and stricter every year.

16

Abbie Carmichael -

You have stated three or four times to this effect:

Let’s keep this in perspective. It isn’t $340 a month, and you do your argument a disservice when you say that it is.

And some other benefits as well.

I’m not trying to say that anyone has it easy on welfare, but to understate the effective income by more than half is disingenous.

You also stated:

According to this cite, that is not the case.

Again, I am not trying to minimize the situation of people who collect welfare. I am asking that it not be exaggerated.

Regards,
Shodan

17

I don’t think you get it. If a person is working full time , even at a minimum wage job, they are making more than $300/month. I’m not saying its easy to live on a low wage job, but plenty of people do it. I know quite a few people who worked full-time at fairly low paying jobs ( not teachers, but supermarket cashiers,bank tellers etc) and attended college part-time (two or three evenings a week). Most college degrees don’t require full-time study. I was in an MBA program while working full-time as a bank teller and then as a financial aid counselor at a trade school…My classes were in the evening, and I took 6 credits per semester at most. Even with three hours studying for each hour in class (and I never spent that much time studying), that’s only twenty-four hours a week.Yes, it takes longer to finish, but it can be done.
And while it may be true that many welfare recipients are single parents who need to obtain a GED before getting any further education, I don’t see the fairness in person A who is working and going to school at the same time paying taxes so that person B can receive public assistance and go to school instead of working , especially when person A may also be a single parent who needed to obtain a GED before starting college.

18

[Disclaimer: I work in an adjunct department of our welfare system. We work daily with clients on welfare and with their financial workers]

Much of state welfare programs are funded by the feds. It is a dog and pony show wherein states must meet certain criteria in order to obtain federal funds. It’s not as much the actual program being funded by federal dollars, but the costs TO operate the welfare system comes from federal dollars. Even though I am a county employee, 70% of my wages are from federal dollars. Same is so with financial workers. The monies trickle from the feds to the states, who run the welfare programs. The state then pays the county for our bodies. It is a very messy system.

Much of the welfare revolution began under Clinton. While I do agree with some of it (a 5 year cap, more federal funding for work initiative programs, more federal funding for daycare assistance), Bush has not helped much. Bush has been very vocal about communities assisting those in need, which I don’t disagree with, but in many places whole communities are poverty stricken. He believes those in need should turn to churches for assistance and that marriage would solve single parent poverty in a heartbeat.

I am in full agreement that there should be career training/education available to those on welfare. Sadly, though, due to budgetary cuts by almost all states have put those opportunities in jeopardy. Minnesota requires a work plan to be in place, or you must have a documentable reason for being unable to work. However, without education (as a fair amount of welfare recipients do not have), temp jobs, jobs without any security, and very low paying jobs are all that’s available. So Sally starts working at a temp agency in April, making $6.00/hr. Job expires in June. Sally’s welfare benefits are docked in August for what she made in June. It’s a vicious cycle. Maybe Sally’s ex decided to pay child support in June also. Yup, her August welfare is further cut. That two month lag time hurts many clients. Luckily, Sally receives daycare assistance, which is reviewed every 6 months, so maybe she’ll have a few months before that is increased. Sally doesn’t have to worry about losing her residence, though, as she is living with friends while she is on the two year housing assistance list. By the time she would be eligible for housing assistance, her 5 year welfare limit will have run out.

It’s a sad, scary program that is negligibly functional. Solutions? First off, more funding to pay for training/education. More available jobs. Losing the pervasive beat down attitude of the welfare system. The idea should be helping people up, not battering them down even more.

19

Under my suggested system you wouldn’t have to sell the car or transportation would be provided. At the same time, there’s nothing wrong with public transportation. I took constantly when I was in college and I still do. Why shouldn’t welfare recipients have to do the same thing?

Being a single parent does not mean you get bonuses denied to the rest of us. Why should a teacher have to work full time AND go to school while someone on welfare does not? The teacher’s tax dollars are supporting the welfare recipient. Why should they support special rights for the welfare recipient they themselves are denied?

They get a loan from the state. Turn into a Pell Grant but make it something you have to pay back.

If they don’t like it they are free to do what I did – find a job. Go on a bunch of interviews. Send your resume everywhere.

If you can’t do that and you are willing to work I am willing to pay for your basic needs out of my tax dollars. It’s completely fair. While you’re there I have no problem giving you time off to go interviews.

But I’m not just going to GIVE you a check to meet your basic needs and then expect nothing in return. My employer expects me to show up for work or he won’t pay me. I expect the same from every able bodied adult.

No. There’s always tons of work that our society needs to get done but doesn’t get done because of budget constraints.

20

My classes were in the evening, and I took 6 credits per semester at most.

What part of “you can’t get financial aid for school unless you are enrolled full time” are you not understanding?

**Let’s keep this in perspective. It isn’t $340 a month, and you do your argument a disservice when you say that it is.

Quote:
Starting in August, it will go down to $340 and $371 in food stamps.

And some other benefits as well.

I’m not trying to say that anyone has it easy on welfare, but to understate the effective income by more than half is disingenous.**

Ok, fair enough, Shodan. Although I’d like to know what the “other benefits” are. Are you talking about a medical card or am I missing something?

The food stamp money can be spent ONLY on food, though. $371 for a family of three is plenty.

So yeah, your income really IS $340 a month. You have access to $340 in cash, per month. Yes, food is taken care of, which is nice, but having to pay utilities, rent, car insurance, buy clothing, etc. on $340 a month is impossible.

Thanks for the car cite, though. I stand corrected. :slight_smile: