where we hear SpaceGhost call freshmen Dumbass Fish and makes them CRY because they were looking him in the eye or some such crap.
And Xploder, I still think it’s hazing whether it’s done in the honorable military or not, and I still fail to see how calling people worthless Dumbasses builds their confidence and self esteem to make them better, stronger people in the long run.
And I would NEVER, EVER have respect for someone who demanded it of me on threat of humiliation or forced labor.
I would be extra proud of someone who said “Hey, I’m going to treat these new students like human beings rather than meat, who’s with me?”
Let me see If I can’t explain what happened in an unbiased way.
During my first week back at the TAMU Corps of Cadets as a sophomore, a poorly worded thread on my part that was expressing my intial glee being a sophomore. (A “Pisshead” in Aggiespeak)
I was wrong to both feel glee in being an asshole, and to post the event in such a way as to show me feeling glee in being an asshole. Indeed, being a sophomore sucks in lot of ways. it isn’t fun being an asshole.
However, what really cause the trouble was the argument over what the definition of “hazing” was, and whether I was an asshole to partake in Jarbaby’s (among other’s) definition.
I stand by my previous assertation that we do not commit acts of hazing here. Every freshman coming into the Corps knows that the fish year is a hard, crappy year. Every freshman who stuck it out the first year is happy he did. He’s in better shape, hopefully has better grades than he would have (mandatory studytime in the evenings), and has a sense of family with his “Buddies” that he wouldn’t have with civilian friends.
We have never, ever inflicted bodily harm on members of our outfit. Just as it would be wrong for family members to beat on others, it’s wrong for members of the Corps to do so to freshmen.
I’m too lazy to search for the relavent threads right now, but they are out there…
I’ve never written a definition of hazing, I provided it for you from stophazing.org. Stop by sometime.
And so why not make it harder by calling them a dumbass for looking at you wrong?! Freshman year had me crying almost every day in college, I was away from my parents in a state I’d never been in, I had very few friends…you know how I got through it? People were nice to me.
Think about it sometime.
I venture to say that everyone who gets out of prison alive is happy they did. And do you think that perhaps part of their joy at finishing freshman year is the promise that they can treat others like shit in a few short months?
All I’m saying SpaceGhost is that I bet you’re an engaging and smart enough guy to get people to respect and befriend you without being emotionally violent to them.
No problem at all. You, of course, are always entitled to your own opinion on whatever subject you choose. As fas as being called “dumbass”, I can most definitely assure you that I was called far worse during basic training in both the Army and the Navy. It doesn’t mean anything at all. What it’s used for, in the military anyway, is to let a person know, in no uncertain terms, that they have fucked up royally. Also, whether you believe it or not, being forced to do physical training, in the service academies is a part of the curriculum. The whole reasoning behind massive amounts of physical training, in the service academies is, as I said before, to instill a sense of teamwork in the cadet. Being made to memorize inordinate amounts of text or having to know the remaining seconds until graduation or whatever teaches the recruit to use his/her brain at all times. Not only that but it also trains a person to think more clearly. After all, if you have to memorize, say, 25 pages of text as well as the third page of a local paper and still be able to answer any and all questions put to you by an upperclassman, (who also had to go through all this stuff), then you are most definitely going to learn to be very quick on your mental toes.
Apropos of not much of anything, I had to know the nomenclature of every weapon that a Military Police company would use in combat. This included .38’s, .45’s, 9mm’s, shotguns, m16’s both a1 and a2, m60 lmg’s, m19 grenade launchers, m2 hmg’s, grenades, ammunition, mounts, teargas, etc… If I had **not been forced during basic to think extremely quickly, I would never have been able to do it. Not only was armorer not my normal job, but I was a generator mechanic that also worked on vehicles. Since they did make me the armorer and sent me to school down in Vilseck for it, I had to learn all this stuff. So you see, what you call hazing, actually does make military sense.
I’m not going to defend the absurdity of the Corps. I cannot understand why people would put themselves through such torment. I was Non-reg. for the simple fact that my attitude would have gotten me expelled. However, as SpaceGhost points out, all new Cadets know what they are facing when they go in. Many are following in Dad’s footsteps. They do it willingly and, in most cases, proudly. In fact the Fish and Pissheads they are the most arrogant SOBs on campus.
They are free to Punch-Out at any time if they feel the demands are too harsh, or too asinine.
Jarbabyj, I think you are over-reacting to the situation. Yes, you can consider it hazing. However, in this case, it is much more regulated and controlled than in typical Fraternity Hazing. For instance, you won’t find anyone forced to drink an excessive or even fatal amount of alcohol.
I think you’re wasting too much of your vitriolic talents here.
I’m not gonna be the one to defend hazing, but the stophazing.org defition seems to be a touch on the broad side. I know this is twisting both the words and the intent, but by that definition, my college curriculum counts as hazing. Lots of physical and mental discomfort, namely countless hours of working, the constant chance for ridicule when called on in class, etc. and etc. The fact is, I agreed to it and hence consented to it at least tacitly.
As far as I am concerned, forcing kids to do dangerous and truly self-destructive acts, like walking into an electrified pool, count as hazing. These stupidities are in the process of being eradicated nationwide.
Four letter words and some vigorous exercise seems mild enough to slip beneath my radar. Kids want to be part of the group, so they gotta take the knocks. I wanted a double major and a decent GPA, so I was in the library Friday nights. After all, careful doses of pain and humiliation make excellent teachers for some people-. If you’re not one of them, don’t join a frat.
Now hold on here Jarbabyj, I don’t think I’ve ever called a freshman “Dumbass”. I simply referred to him as “Dumbass” in the thread to protect the innocent. Much how I am now refering to him as “fish Jones” for your viewing enjoyment.
And believe me, we do *not" treat them as meat, we do treat them as people. People who are refered to as “fish <insert last name here>” but people none the less. Besides, these freshmen are bigger friends with each other than I ever would be. Just as I am bigger friends with my sophomore buddies than I ever will be with the Juniors and Seniors.
Gotcha. I’ll think about it next time a freshman fucks up a exam because he was farting around instead doingwhat he was suppose to in CQ (mandatory studytime)
Part of the joy of finishing the fish year is when your sophomores walks up to you and says “Watcha Momma call you?” (what’s your first name?) And you get to know your upperclassmen as people, not “that asshole who’s making me do push-ups for something I/my buddy screwed up on big time”.
While it does seem “nice” at the begining of the Sophomore year, being an asshole weres thin quick. Like, less than a week in.
Same with my upperclassmen. You can’t imagine the agony on not being able to shoot the shit with a clear fellow trekkie (my Assisstant Squad Leader had Star Trek Crap all over his room; I’m the only Sci-fi nut in my class year.). In Texas where everyone likes football, it gets annoying rapidly.
But I still have to be emotionally cool to the fish, as my sophomores were last year. They (the fish) know that we have to be cold-hearted sunzabitches, and we’d rather be nice because acting like assholes takes up our time too.
The Juniors and Seniors interact with the Freshmen on a much more personal level (“Good Bull”), and usually they tell us when to pull back, whenever a freshman thinks we’re singling him out personally, etc.
In which case, usually a Game of Mudfootball is in order, to remind them that we aren’t assholes all the time. Just when we can’t have fun.
To uncloud at least this part of it, what I said, again, was, IN THE MILITARY. I believe that the Corps of Cadets runs along some sort of military guidelines while not being one of the service academies per se, therefore they had better damn well follow the guidelines as they are spelled out.
What’s your beef here anyway? The fact that SGA called someone a dumbass? I seem to recall him apologizing earlier in this very thread. Take note also, the people that are in the Corps and in the service academies are there by choice and choice alone. All they have to do is say “I quit” and all the bad things will be done and over with.
If you look at this definition, you see that it does not apply as physical training is something that these people specifically knew about when they joined up. To try and apply this definition to the service academies is laughable in the extreme. I don’t know about anyone else, but I do not want to ever have to go into a combat situation unless my commander has the balls to lead me properly. You cut out what you call ‘hazing’ from the service academies and you end up with a bunch of pansy-ass officers that nobody will want to follow.
Also, take a good look at special forces training sometime. Is that hazing to you also? After all, Navy SEAL training is absolutely the hardest training in the world. Want to talk about hell week? You might get a total of 7 hours of sleep in the entire week. If you’re very lucky that is. These men are trained to the point where doing a couple of hundred one-arm pushups at any time is nothing.
I don’t have anything against you jarbabyj but comparing the service academies training to frat house hazing is, to me, the height of absurdity.
I did not mean to reopen the whole hazing debate. I just don’t understand why jarbaby seemed to be giving SpaceGhost a hard time. I don’t understand why she would come into a thread and make a harsh comment based on a 3 month old arguement. What in this OP referenced any type of hazing?
Before anyone pulls out this sentence:
Please note that it was immediatly followed by this sentence:
I don’t see any threat of hazing or physical punishement at all. Am I way out of line here? Is this how you would like to be treated jarbaby? Your “When Doper Relationships go bad” thread makes me think otherwise.
Again, I’m not trying to attack you, jarbaby. I just think that you’re being too harsh and it seems inconsistent with what you have expressed in previous threads.
So, if I understand this correctly, people are going to this institution of higher learning to be treated like shit for a year, then treat others like shit for the next three years.
There is still a contingent of former students and some current students who still lament the fact that the school is open to women and the Corps is not manditory. These folks sully the reputation of an otherwise excellent, if sometimes too conservative, school.
Well, you don’t understand it correctly, but don’t let that stop you.
What hazing accomplishes is intense solidarity among the hazed. You may not realize it unless you’ve experienced it. Among the pledges, you have to organize feats such as kidnapping an active and keeping him for several hours before the other actives can rescue him. You come out of it feeling very connected to your fellow pledges. I assume this is some of the intent of military hazing.
Also, only the sophmores act the assholes. The other upperclassmen are much less involved, and occasionally sympathetic. And our pledge rush lasted for less than one trimester, not a whole year.
FWIW some of the hazing I received, which I recall fondly (those assholes were devious!):
[ul]
[li]Drink multiple rotgut whiskey shots with a fishball from the cafeteria.[/li][li]Carry a sponge in our breast pocket at all times to wipe up the beer that the actives would unfailingly spill when they saw us. Man was my nipple chapped.[/li][li]Wear a McDonald’s paper cap at all times.[/li][li]Hold push-up position while the other half of the pledge class dashes to the cafeteria to get food for us.[/li][/ul]
