Having spent some time in the DR, I can certainly agree that Joe A-hole is missing out on some very fine things if he doesn’t know the language. My experience has been that even a halting, bad-accented Spanish attempt will get you farther than an insistence in speaking only English.
Of course, sometimes even that’s not enough. Giving driving directions and saying derecho when you meant to say derecha, which I did, causing a missed turn, which in Santo Domingo traffic is no small matter from which to recover. But if you don’t try, you’ll never get better at any language.
[p]Paul**, I don’t want to sound judgemental but I find hard to believe that you can dump a whole country into the same category. I have yet to find a country in which the population is so uniform that I like/dislike ALL of them. Maybe you do need to inmerse yourself in the country, learn the lingo, appreciate the culture to see that it is worth it.
I don’t know how people can move to a country and isolate themselves, even worse, not respect the local culture and way of life. You definitely don’t have to agree with all aspects of their culture, but it is unfair to pretend that the world should bend over backwards to accomodate you. Or that the country that has welcomed you and granted you the privilege living and work there (it IS a privilege) should be a mirror image of your home-country. I tend to be polite, but more than once I have been REALLY tempted to tell people to pack their backs and leave us the hell alone if they think this is the hellhole they claim it is.
I am not saying that the above is Paul’s case, I don’t know him. It should not be construed to be an accusation to him in particular, just to the Expats from Hell.
In December, we had a major ice storm here in North Carolina. Massive power outages, some loss of life. A significant number of the lives that were lost (and huge numbers of emergency room visits) were due to persons who do not speak English using inappropriate heating devices within the confines of their homes and thus poisoning themselves with carbon monoxide. By “inappropriate heating devices,” I mean barbecue grills, gas grills, hibachis, etc. So the news agencies started giving out warnings in Spanish, in hopes of reaching the vast majority of non-English-speaking folks in the area. Including the Charlotte Observer.
An all-English newspaper.
On page 5.
I really, really wonder how many people benefitted from that.
[en Español]
Hey, I’ve got an idea. Since we’re all huddled around the Weber Charmaster here, why don’t I run out and pick up a newspaper none of us can read to pass the time, on the off chance that there will be something halfway through section A that might save our lives!
[/Español]
It hurt my respect for the editors of the Observer. If they really wanted to do good, they should have published a special edition with the vital information on the front goddamn page. If they really didn’t care, they shouldn’t have bothered to do anything. Doing something so half-assed just makes them look like idiots who know something needs to be done but don’t know what really or how to do it.
(No, of course they didn’t really care. And neither, IMO, did much of their readership. Near as I can tell, it was just enough to keep the liberals happy without being so blatant as to piss the conservatives off. But that may just be me, and it’s largely based on my experiences with the N&O.)
Although I don’t disagree that it would be a valuable thing, and overall a good idea, for someone working in a country that speaks another language to make some attempts to learn the language, it’s a good idea to know where it would be acceptable to speak a second language and where one should stick to their native tongue.
For example, I am an Anglo who lives in the United States, in an area which has a fairly sizeable Latino population. Often, I need to communicate with someone who speaks little English, but Spanish is their native tongue. Sometimes it’s apparent to me that my ability to speak Spanish is greater than the other person’s ability to speak English. Is it insulting if I switch to speaking Spanish with this person? I know that many, perhaps even a significant majority, of Latinos in this area are either bilingual English/Spanish speakers or monolingual English speakers. I’m not just randomly going up to a person of Latino descent/appearance and speaking Spanish to them because I think they don’t speak English. Yet when I run across a person who speaks little English, I fear that if I switch to speaking Spanish it will seem like I’m being arrogant.
Then again, this guy’s just being obnoxious. Even if he didn’t master the language after spending five years in another country (although wouldn’t a person sincerely attempting to learn another language generally be able to speak it fairly well after spending five years in a country where it is spoken?), the least he could do is try to learn some of it in an effort of goodwill.
I am in no position of giving advice Pau, but I would suggest that you break the cycle. Have you considered that maybe they are being nasty to you precisely because they know/feel the low opinion you have of them… revenge and all that.
I think European-Americans are already in the minority in Los Angeles. Seems to me I heard that on NPR a couple of years ago.
Obviously, there are a lot of Hispanics where I work. A few years ago one of them (born in Texas, BTW) was speaking Spanish to another Hispanic worker in the break room. A temporary employee took umbrage and told them that they are in America and should speak English. He found it offensive that people would have a private conversation in their first language instead of English. He was gone from the company shortly thereafter.
Hey, I bothered to learn French before going to France. Mon francaise, c’est tres mauvais but I tried anyhow. Where folks didn’t speak any English (and there’s a lot of them once you get outside of Paris) even broken, semi-incoherent French is still a very very useful thing to have.
Yes, some folks just can’t learn another language. It’s unfortunate. But they CAN learn a few phrases, such as “I can’t speak Spanish” in Spanish. Barking it out in English is just plain rude when you’re somewhere like the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico or other place where Spainsh IS the native language.
I work in downtown Chicago, where things are routinely in not just English and Spanish but Polish as well, and sometimes other languages. LOTS of folks are ESL. The rule in my workplace is that business is conducted in English, but there’s no problem with other languages on breaks, during lunch, or in the bathroom. (My first Spanish phrases will likely be something like the Pit threads on bodily functions and toilets, sad to say…)
But Paul - please start a Pit thread on why you don’t like the natives. I’m curious.
Don’t let that stand in your way! In almost every country in the world, the locals will be delighted if you at least make a stab at communicating in their language, even if you make a muddle of it.
And with English and French on your side, there are very few places where you’ll have any real difficulty communicating. In fact, I’ve encountered many, many people who are so eager to practice their English, they don’t want me to speak anything else with them. This is especially true of the kids. I’ve been in remote little villages in places like Egypt and Thailand, and the schoolkids zero in on English-speaking tourists, and will talk your ear off. Lots of fun!
I rwas stationed in Puerto Rico for a year and a half while I was in Navy. I made an effort to learn spanish at the time. I worked in a hospital and we had many Spanish speaking patients, as well as making my life easier and more interesting. I found when I first arrived, I thought everyone was talking about me, as I was there longer I decided not to care, and after I learned enough of the language to have some idea of what was going on, I found I wasn’t nearly as interesting as I had thought as hardly anyone EVER spoke about me. Once I transfered to California I worked in a pharmacy with a number of Phiipino sailors they often spoke Tagalog. I comlianed and they said “you should learn to speak Tagalog”. I informed them that I had learn Spanish in Puerto Rico, but here THEY should speak English. Please note that ALL of these folks were perfectly fluent in English, I felt they used it as code. In the converse of that a doctor I worked with at the same comand was also a Philipino. He had been the surgeon general of the Philipines at one time and spoke a number of languages including Arabic. When he was speaking to another Philipino and I entered the room, he would swotch to English even if the other person continued in Taglog. Once we had an old Philipino lady come to the emergency room and she truly COULDN’T speak English. Dr Yaldua tried and then turned to me to appoligize for have to take the history of her illness in a language I didn’t speak. I do feel that was un-necessary, but I did appreciate the effort he made. As Americans we often act like we own the world, it’s wrong and I hold the rest of you can fogive own ignorant countrymen. but do feel free to overcharge them for there rudeness.
I rwas stationed in Puerto Rico for a year and a half while I was in Navy. I made an effort to learn spanish at the time. I worked in a hospital and we had many Spanish speaking patients, as well as making my life easier and more interesting. I found when I first arrived, I thought everyone was talking about me, as I was there longer I decided not to care, and after I learned enough of the language to have some idea of what was going on, I found I wasn’t nearly as interesting as I had thought as hardly anyone EVER spoke about me. Once I transfered to California I worked in a pharmacy with a number of Phiipino sailors they often spoke Tagalog. I comlianed and they said “you should learn to speak Tagalog”. I informed them that I had learn Spanish in Puerto Rico, but here THEY should speak English. Please note that ALL of these folks were perfectly fluent in English, I felt they used it as code. In the converse of that a doctor I worked with at the same comand was also a Philipino. He had been the surgeon general of the Philipines at one time and spoke a number of languages including Arabic. When he was speaking to another Philipino and I entered the room, he would switch to English even if the other person continued in Taglog. Once we had an old Philipino lady come to the emergency room and she truly COULDN’T speak English. Dr Yaldua tried and then turned to me to appoligize for have to take the history of her illness in a language I didn’t speak. I do feel that was un-necessary, but I did appreciate the effort he made. As Americans we often act like we own the world, it’s wrong and I hold the rest of you can fogive own ignorant countrymen. but do feel free to overcharge them for there rudeness.
I agree - I went to Italy twice a number of years ago. I had three semesters of French in college, which I vaguely remembered - it was just enough to be confusing when trying to understand Italian. I got some good phrasebooks and a “learn Italian” computer program which taught me some tourist basics. And then when I was in Italy, I was determined to never open a conversation with English or resort to it until the person I was talking to did. People seemed pleased that - bad grammar and other errors notwithstanding - I was trying, and with enough pointing and reading up on the phrases before stepping into a shop, I muddled through just fine. Often, people would use what English they knew when trying to communicate with me, and I was once surprised when I ordered a meal in Italian and the waiter replied to me in flawless, Midwestern US-accented English. Plus I often found materials printed in English, especially menus and signs in tourist areas, and discovered that the ATMs would nearly always have instructions offered in Italian, English, and up to 4 other languages.
I discovered at least one occasion where a more-fluent person was given less slack than I was, too. I went to a town in Northern Italy with relatives, and we hopped a train to visit Genoa. We accidentally sat in the wrong part of the train (first class), and the conductor realized from our poor Italian that we were hapless tourists and just showed us what compartment to sit in. My brother-in-law is basically fluent in Italian and looks very Italian. On a different train trip, he made the same mistake, and was made to get off at the next stop, buy upgrade tickets, and hand those over.
This is sort of off the subject but it does speak to it. Anyone ever read a sci-fi novel by Heinlein Podkayne of Mars. A teenage girl(Podkayne), her brother and great-uncle travel from Mars to Venus. Venus is basically a privately owned colony of an Earth business company, and the major goal of everyone on it is to make money. The prime tourist spots are vacation resorts, with lots of gambling. Poddy, in trying to communicate with the polyglot workforce, learns you can get by pretty well if you learn to say “thank you” in as many languages as possible. People appreciate the attempt to speak their own language, and sometimes even turn down tips, in a society where “even ushers in church take tips!”
When my folks made their first trip to Germany they had high school German and a phrase book to get by on(for the later trips they took language courses) They did just fine.
I got some good phrasebooks and a “learn Italian” computer program which taught me some tourist basics. And then when I was in Italy, I was determined to never open a conversation with English or resort to it until the person I was talking to did. People seemed pleased that - bad grammar and other errors notwithstanding - I was trying, and with enough pointing and reading up on the phrases before stepping into a shop, I muddled through just fine. Often, people would use what English they knew when trying to communicate with me, and I was once surprised when I ordered a meal in Italian and the waiter replied to me in flawless, Midwestern US-accented English. Plus I often found materials printed in English, especially menus and signs in tourist areas, and discovered that the ATMs would nearly always have instructions offered in Italian, English, and up to 4 other languages.