Welll Looky here. Ex-Fox News host Gretchen Carlson sues network head Roger Ailes for sexual...

[YogSothoth]

@iiandyiiii

Sexual attacks are different.

That’s the fundamental thing you don’t get, it seems to me – you think that sexual harassment, abuse, and rape can be put in the same category as other transgressions (assault, theft, murder, etc.).

I think this is where you and I will not be able to come to an agreement. I disagree with the above, completely. I think a tool is merely a tool, that how its used, by who, in what context, matters. Because below you said:

@iiandyiiii

That you can conflate sexual harassment of a woman with justice in any way whatsoever is misogynistic, full stop. It’s not a tool of punishment, it’s a tool of dehumanizing and objectifying women. Dehumanization and objectification are never valid or just punishments, no matter who is involved. To conflate the two is not only wrong, but helps abusers and harassers.

My emphasis in bold. I agree with that part, but not the rest of the sentence. Again I ask, and I don’t think you answered: what if it happened to a man? I want to know what happens if you rape or sexually harass a man. Let’s say a man’s doing it to another man, is that an attack on women? Let’s try another example and say a women’s doing it to a man, is that woman masochistic? In neither of those situations is sexual harassment and abuse misogynistic. In the first case there isn’t even a woman involved, and in the second, the woman’s the dominant one.
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I kept on writing my defense of what Ailes did to Carlson below, but I think mid-paragraph I started to not believe it anymore. Mostly, what I was going to say was that while I agree that throughout history women have been abused in this way, I was trying to say that in this case, it may or may not be ok since both parties are odious. But looking at the big picture, what Ailes got away with for decades is more harmful than me being perfectly sure 100% that he may have done this just because he was an ass and abused everyone. So you win this one, I no longer think Carlson deserved to be harassed. Its happened to too many women and continues to be a problem so instances like this add to the overall harm that women experience.

That said, I still think Carlson deserves to be punished. I’m totally not sympathetic to her as she has spouted as much evil shit as many of her male anchors at Fox against women. But instead of harassment, maybe a punch in the face with spiked gloves, or drop a heavy object on her that breaks several bones, or walking into traffic while playing Pokemon Go. No sympathy for the degree of punishment, just the type of punishment. And while I don’t agree that she should be harassed anymore, I’m still not going to be sorry that it happened. It happened, I didn’t do it, and she felt bad, so I’ll spend no time feeling sorry for her.

@iiandyiiii

I’m not defending any behavior of hers at Fox – I don’t care about any of that, with regards to my criticism of you. I’m criticizing you because it doesn’t matter what someone does – no one deserves sexual mistreatment of any kind, and implying that someone does is wrong. Implying that a woman does is misogynistic.

I’ll turn to a new target: shitty men. I don’t think that my newfound belief in thinking women don’t deserve to be sexually harassed extends to me. I think plenty of men who do this deserves to have this done to them in return. So I’d disagree with you that no one deserves it. Many men do, if only to get a taste of what they are dishing out

@iiandyiiii

Criticize Carlson all you want about her behavior and work on Fox – just don’t connect it to these allegations or some notion of justice. They have nothing to do with each other and never can. I won’t feel betrayed if she wins this lawsuit and then goes on to work for Fox again because my opinion of her as a person have absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of her lawsuit, or sexual harassment in general.

Its not justice, I’m done defending it as an equal punishment, but I do get a bit of ironic pleasure from it. Something bad happened to someone I don’t like, which was similar to what that person did to others. Its poetic justice, not real justice, but kind of funny in a way. Undeserved, but it will get a great big “meh” from me if you ask me to feel bad for her. I would, however, feel even more enmity towards her if she wins the lawsuit and goes back to work for Fox.

@iiandyiiii

For example “Carlson is a terrible person because she aided and abetted sexism on a daily basis while working for Fox News, but no one deserves sexual harassment or other sexual mistreatment of any kind” would be a strong criticism of Carlson that isn’t misogynistic. But you didn’t do that – you jumped to asserting that she deserves it, and implied that this was just. And that’s where the misogyny – your misogyny – came in.

How about this? “Carlson is a terrible person because she aided and abetted sexism on a daily basis while working for Fox News, but no one deserves sexual harassment or other sexual mistreatment of any kind, but I’m not going to feel terribly bad because it happened and am not going to spend time defending her or feeling outrage”

@iiandyiiii

Bullshit and misogynistic comparison, because you’re saying that someone can ever deserve sexual harassment. No one deserves such treatment – it doesn’t fall into the category of “things that a person can deserve”. No one, not even a rapist, deserves to be raped. And no one, not even a sexual harasser, deserves to be sexually harassed.

While I agree now that Carlson doesn’t deserve it, I’m not going to blanketly say that no human in the history of mankind now or in the future or past deserves it. I’m pretty certain whatever bad you may think would come out of Hitler getting repeatedly raped by cacti, it would totally be overwhelmed by the amount of good that would come from torturing Hitler. He deserves torture too, by the way, just anything bad you can ever think of, he deserves that times a million.

@iiandyiiii

That you are mentally able to associate sexual mistreatment with justice, for anyone at all, is extremely problematic, and when associated with women, misogynistic. Further, associating these things helps sexual abusers and harassers.

I think what finally got to me was the argument helps sexual abuses and harassers. I was trying to divorce myself from them, very strongly, but eventually I realized I couldn’t do it.

@iiandyiiii

I’m talking strictly about sexual mistreatment – it’s always 100% wrong to blame the victims of sexual harassment, abuse, and rape.
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They can’t. They are fundamentally different, and they always have been. Especially with regards to women. That you don’t recognize this is a sign of the deep tendrils that rape culture sends out and digs in – that some or even most folks, especially most men, can still find it within them to minimize sexual mistreatment, blame victims of sexual mistreatment, or treat it like other crimes.

The reason they’re fundamentally different goes into the history of the overwhelming majority of their occurrence among humans – disempowering women, punishing women, terrorizing women, objectifying women, dehumanizing women, etc. We can’t say the same thing about any other category of violence or transgressions. As long as you don’t recognize the fundamental difference, and as long as you believe that any sexual transgression can be associated with justice in any way, then you’re still clinging to misogyny.

I’m not sure if that’s the reason. I have a suspicion that if we all put our delicious brains together, we can think of similar disadvantaged groups. So this brings up an interesting thought exercise. Why is sexual harassment the exception? Don’t you find that fascinating? Its like most of us have that gut instinct that we know it is different, but can’t explain why.

@iiandyiiii

Sexual harassment (and other sexual transgressions) are in a different category. It’s not possible to sexually harass a woman in a non-misogynistic way, any more than it’s possible to rape a woman in a non-misogynistic way. The acts are inherently misogynistic. Doing the same for a man may be inherently misandristic, or maybe not (I haven’t read or heard that much about misandry, since it’s such a miniscule force in our society compared to misogyny).

I dunno about that, what if the person who’s doing it isn’t a man or a woman? What if that person is a genderless alien, or was taught from birth to not know what the sexes are and so was the victim? I still hold that its possible for it to be completely non-misogynistic, but I’ll agree that it probably doesn’t occur in the world.

@iiandyiiii

It’s not too late – you could always come to recognize that you’ve said something misogynistic and correct yourself. That might not mitigate all the potential harm, just like me trying to not say or do racist things doesn’t necessarily mitigate all the potential harm I did as a younger man when I said racist things, but it’s absolutely necessary to improving as a person, just as it was to me.

Done and done, I suppose. Though I’m still kind of an ass because I don’t feel bad for her. She could get kidnapped by ISIS for all I care, so could Ailes, and the entire face lineup of Fox.

@Algher

I am sure **Yogsothoth **will be along to say that “Susan” deserved it for being a Goldwater girl.

No, I won’t.

@Little_Pig

Oh goody. Murdochs to Remove Fox News Chief Roger Ailes.

I’m not sure if this will sound misogynistic, or extremely assholic, but I’ll say it anyways: If Ailes is gone, I guess its all been worth it? Anyone? Back me up?

[iiandyiiii]

I’ll congratulate and pat you on the back, YogSothoth, for your recognition and contrition. The rest of our disagreements aren’t really about misogyny; I may answer them later if I have the time and interest (and if there are any particularly important points you’d like me to answer, I’d be happy to).

[YogSothoth]

Thanks. There is a few things I would love to have responded to. I want to hear your response to:

I’ll turn to a new target: shitty men. I don’t think that my newfound belief in thinking women don’t deserve to be sexually harassed extends to meN. I think plenty of men who do this deserves to have this done to them in return. So I’d disagree with you that no one deserves it. Many men do, if only to get a taste of what they are dishing out

Edit: Missed a letter there.

While I agree now that Carlson doesn’t deserve it, I’m not going to blanketly say that no human in the history of mankind now or in the future or past deserves it. I’m pretty certain whatever bad you may think would come out of Hitler getting repeatedly raped by cacti, it would totally be overwhelmed by the amount of good that would come from torturing Hitler. He deserves torture too, by the way, just anything bad you can ever think of, he deserves that times a million.

Slight Godwinizing, but I’m not using Hitler to prove I’m right, I’m using him as an example to say there are some people who are bad enough to deserve anything. Like really, who’s going to say Hitler doesn’t deserve that?

And this:

I dunno about that, what if the person who’s doing it isn’t a man or a woman? What if that person is a genderless alien, or was taught from birth to not know what the sexes are and so was the victim? I still hold that its possible for it to be completely non-misogynistic, but I’ll agree that it probably doesn’t occur in the world.

So hypothetically, could an alien from race who doesn’t have male or females in their species be misogynistic if he did exactly what Ailes did, but without the understanding that such an asymmetrical power vacuum occurs to humans? What if a robot did it? I’m unwilling to say blanketly say sexual harassment of women is always misogynistic if we can use fantastically improbable examples with aliens and robots. I want to say its a human thing because the misogyny was created by humans and persists in our species. Other sentient life should be free from our baggage

[iiandyiiii]

@YogSothoth

Thanks. There is a few things I would love to have responded to. I want to hear your response to:

I’ll turn to a new target: shitty men. I don’t think that my newfound belief in thinking women don’t deserve to be sexually harassed extends to meN. I think plenty of men who do this deserves to have this done to them in return. So I’d disagree with you that no one deserves it. Many men do, if only to get a taste of what they are dishing out

Edit: Missed a letter there.

I don’t know if it’s misogyny, but I think it’s wrong and slightly trivializes sexual assault and harassment. These things should just be totally separated from any relation to justice, in my view. Putting them together does no good and can do the harm of seeming to trivialize or justify it.

While I agree now that Carlson doesn’t deserve it, I’m not going to blanketly say that no human in the history of mankind now or in the future or past deserves it. I’m pretty certain whatever bad you may think would come out of Hitler getting repeatedly raped by cacti, it would totally be overwhelmed by the amount of good that would come from torturing Hitler. He deserves torture too, by the way, just anything bad you can ever think of, he deserves that times a million.

Slight Godwinizing, but I’m not using Hitler to prove I’m right, I’m using him as an example to say there are some people who are bad enough to deserve anything. Like really, who’s going to say Hitler doesn’t deserve that?

I’m not going to shed a tear, but I don’t think “deserve” is the right word for it for the reasons above. There are plenty of things that cause just as much suffering that he might “deserve” that don’t trivialize or provide any justification for sexual assault/harassment – I separate those because they’ve been so damn common in history, and so often trivialized and justified as part of normal (usually male) behavior. Torture and murder are also terrible but they have never been considered a normal part of human (male) impulses and almost universally trivialized and justified throughout history, as the sexual-assault type of crimes have.

And this:

I dunno about that, what if the person who’s doing it isn’t a man or a woman? What if that person is a genderless alien, or was taught from birth to not know what the sexes are and so was the victim? I still hold that its possible for it to be completely non-misogynistic, but I’ll agree that it probably doesn’t occur in the world.

So hypothetically, could an alien from race who doesn’t have male or females in their species be misogynistic if he did exactly what Ailes did, but without the understanding that such an asymmetrical power vacuum occurs to humans? What if a robot did it? I’m unwilling to say blanketly say sexual harassment of women is always misogynistic if we can use fantastically improbable examples with aliens and robots. I want to say its a human thing because the misogyny was created by humans and persists in our species. Other sentient life should be free from our baggage

It might be non-misogynistic, but it still makes misogyny easier for others, and in a way materially assists misogynists. I’m not nearly as interested in motives as effects, since I can’t read minds – Ailes may have been motivated by a million different feelings, but what he did (if he did do it) helped misogynists and hurt women, and therefore I think it’s reasonable to condemn the action as misogynistic.

Maybe it’d be different in an outer space non-human culture, but on Earth in our society, it’s misogynistic.

[Measure_for_Measure]

New York Magazine: Sources: Megyn Kelly Told Murdoch Investigators That Roger Ailes Sexually Harassed Her Sources: Megyn Kelly Told Murdoch Investigators That Roger Ailes Sexually Harassed Her

Anonymous sources say she has told Fox investigators that she was harassed 10 years ago by Ailes. She has described the encounter in detail. So there are some sources at Fox who want Ailes to go. Allegedly Murdoch’s 2 sons are in that category.
[INDENT][INDENT]According to two sources, Monday afternoon lawyers for 21st Century Fox gave Ailes a deadline of August 1 to resign or face being fired for cause. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Ailes invented the Fox News business model. I suspect severance will be in 8 figures rather than 7 and that it will be undisclosed. But just because someone invents a business process doesn’t mean that someone else can’t run with it.

More: [INDENT][INDENT]Meanwhile… lawyers are attempting to interview former Fox employees who have stories of harassment but haven’t spoken because they signed settlements with Ailes’s Fox attorney, Dianne Brandi. 21st Century Fox is now waiving the NDAs [nondisclosure agreements] to allow women to speak. [/INDENT][/INDENT]

[Measure_for_Measure]

Josh Marshall on twitter:

[INDENT][INDENT]Gretchen Carlson, Ailes Slayer. Amazing. Took less than 2 weeks for him to be gone. 1 woman stood up. How many were bullied into submission? https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/755500521918726144

Now that two of Fox’s top female talents say Ailes harassed/pressured for sex, is there any imagining what the full story is?

Ailes types tend to start at bottom of totem pole with the weakest/most defenseless marks, then work their way up. Stories must be endless.

Confess I’d never thought of Carlson as more than yet another Fox talking head spouting Fox gibberish. But RESPECT. Totally brave. RESPECT. https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/755507865931157504

All the crazy talk coming out of Fox right now, it’s like watching the crowds of North Koreans crying hysterically after Kim Il-sung died. https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/755518134694584320
[/INDENT][/INDENT] Also, memories from a couple of days ago of Trump defending alleged serial harasser Ailes
https://twitter.com/BaselYHamdan/status/755501386159288320

[Acsenray]

There seems to be a whole lot of effort going on in here to try to draw fine lines. I don’t see any reason for it.

No one deserves to be hit, not even an abuser.

No one deserves to be tortured, not even a torturer.

No one deserves to be raped, not even a rapist.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a murderer.

Just follow that ethic and you reach a pretty consistent conclusion: No one deserves to be sexually harassed in the workplace, not even a female conservative television anchor.

[Grrr]

@Acsenray

There seems to be a whole lot of effort going on in here to try to draw fine lines. I don’t see any reason for it.

No one deserves to be hit, not even an abuser.

No one deserves to be tortured, not even a torturer.

No one deserves to be raped, not even a rapist.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a murderer.

Just follow that ethic and you reach a pretty consistent conclusion: No one deserves to be sexually harassed in the workplace, not even a female conservative television anchor.

True. But my sympathy works on a sliding scale.

Gretchen has my complete sympathy.

But if a murder gets murdered, or an abuser gets their ass kicked, they will receive considerably less sympathy.

[Acsenray]

Is it strictly necessary to calculate your quantum of sympathy when something unfortunate happens to someone?

[Isamu]

A rough calculation happens automatically, I think.

[Acsenray]

@Isamu

A rough calculation happens automatically, I think.

I doubt it. I think what’s happening is more likely that someone is thinking “I’m happy that someone I dislike is suffering” and then trying to justify that by making contorted justifications about how much sympathy that person deserves. Instead of entering that moral thicket, just think “eh, maybe schadenfreude is not a good thing and I should figure out how to get over that.”

[digs]

@Acsenray

“eh, maybe schadenfreude is not a good thing and I should figure out how to get over that.”

I’ll take Words I Never Thought I’d See On The Dope for 1000, Alex.
(Words I’m going to ignore. Karma happening to evil people is delicious justice. And a longing for schadenfreude in November is all that’s keeping my hope for America alive)

[wolfpup]

No Schadenfreude, as far as I’m concerned. It’s not about revenge, but about justice and the creation of a better workplace. OK, so it bugs me a little that Ailes may be getting a huge settlement, because he’s a totally immoral asshole who’s more deserving of being held upside down with his head in a toilet than of a $40 million settlement. But what’s most important is that he’s being removed from the workplace and this time, surely, the organization will have finally learned a lesson that was a long time coming.

This thread has featured some pretty vicious attacks against those who have said that this has long been the nature of the workplace at Fox News, as if that was somehow “blaming the victim”. But never mind, there have been lots of misunderstandings on our positions, and I think we can all agree that if Ailes is dumped it’s progress, and if Gretchen Carlson was the moving force or the final impetus behind it, she deserves major credit for her courage and determination.

[YogSothoth]

@iiandyiiii

I don’t know if it’s misogyny, but I think it’s wrong and slightly trivializes sexual assault and harassment. These things should just be totally separated from any relation to justice, in my view. Putting them together does no good and can do the harm of seeming to trivialize or justify it.

Is it your contention that sexual harassment is so intrinsic as to how women are thought of that it can’t happen without a feeling like it somehow harms women? And if so, how does mankind move beyond that to a more neutral view of it?

@iiandyiiii

It might be non-misogynistic, but it still makes misogyny easier for others, and in a way materially assists misogynists. I’m not nearly as interested in motives as effects, since I can’t read minds – Ailes may have been motivated by a million different feelings, but what he did (if he did do it) helped misogynists and hurt women, and therefore I think it’s reasonable to condemn the action as misogynistic.

Do you mean instead that supporting what Ailes did, or in my case, defending it by saying the victim deserves it, makes misogyny easier for others? Just because harassment happened doesn’t mean it makes it easier for others to do it. Because couldn’t I argue that since Ailes is being punished, that his misogyny, while terrible, created a lasting positive in that misogynists will be diminished from seeing the consequences of those actions? Couldn’t you imagine that a rape or something like that creates so much outrage that it hurts rape culture?

[iiandyiiii]

@YogSothoth

Is it your contention that sexual harassment is so intrinsic as to how women are thought of that it can’t happen without a feeling like it somehow harms women? And if so, how does mankind move beyond that to a more neutral view of it?

In modern society, I think that’s true in general – there might be specific instances that could be thought up in which this might not be the case, but I think those would be unusual. As to how to move on – end rape culture entirely.

Do you mean instead that supporting what Ailes did, or in my case, defending it by saying the victim deserves it, makes misogyny easier for others? Just because harassment happened doesn’t mean it makes it easier for others to do it. Because couldn’t I argue that since Ailes is being punished, that his misogyny, while terrible, created a lasting positive in that misogynists will be diminished from seeing the consequences of those actions? Couldn’t you imagine that a rape or something like that creates so much outrage that it hurts rape culture?

Ailes gets $40m to leave and had a very successful career – that sends the message that this is not mutually exclusive with sexually mistreating women. So yes, his mistreatment serves to potentially encourage other mistreatment, whether by those who personally interacted with him and saw him get away with it for so long, or by others who just read about it, to a smaller but still real degree.

I suppose it’s possible to think of some instance that could lead to the end of rape culture, but it’d be more like the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than a single instance so vile that it results in change all by itself.

[Acsenray]

@digs

I’ll take Words I Never Thought I’d See On The Dope for 1000, Alex.

Really? You don’t think Dopers use big words?

(Words I’m going to ignore. Karma happening to evil people is delicious justice. And a longing for schadenfreude in November is all that’s keeping my hope for America alive)

Whatever it is, it’s not “justice” and it’s not civilized.

[Acsenray]

And since you brought up karma then you would be worried that taking pleasure in someone else’s misfortune is probably a bad idea. It doesn’t mesh well with the kinds of philosophies that believe in karma.

[Miller]

@Acsenray

Really? You don’t think Dopers use big words?

I believe he meant the sentence as a whole, not just the big German loan-word.

[digs]

Yep, after you’re done Fighting Ignorance, you get to enjoy the Bad Guys getting their just desserts. So I was shocked – SHOCKED I tell you – to read:

@Acsenray

I doubt it. I think what’s happening is more likely that someone is thinking “I’m happy that someone I dislike is suffering” and then trying to justify that by making contorted justifications about how much sympathy that person deserves. Instead of entering that moral thicket, just think “eh, maybe schadenfreude is not a good thing and I should figure out how to get over that.”

And my first reaction was “That’s crazy talk! We lurrrrve schadenfreude here!”

[silenus]

I’m a flawed human being. I’m enjoying Ailes’ fall quite a bit. With a smile on my face, even.