Seconded – what an asshole.
Some women actually need jobs and money. I’m not going to blame a woman for working for a media company that I think does shitty things any more than I’ll blame a woman for getting a job with an oil or coal company.
For your next trick, you can respond to what I actually said (“If you work for a bullshit propaganda mill, you deserve to be dismissed as a hack unworthy of the name ‘journalist’”).
Cite?
You can start there. I’m sure the text of the inquiry is findable. And it was, from what I’ve heard from people in the know, a pretty kind and forgiving investigation.
How far does your lack of sympathy go? She’s suing for sexual harassment. Do you think it’s wrong of her to do this because “its your own damn fault”? If you support the latter while believing the former, then I have to question your ability to reason.
Yes, its totally assholish of me to say what I said, I own that. And if this subject were slightly different, I would probably be joining you guys and pile on the offender. But this isn’t just any workplace, this is Fox News, purveyor of stupid, spreader of lies, cauldron of hate, and openly sexist.
I think you guys have your criticisms misdirected. I believe the feeling is that this is an issue where people feel like they have to stand up for women in general, that its a gender issue, and that my criticism has to do with Carlson’s gender. None of that is true. I see this more as an internal Fox News issue. If it wasn’t Carlson, it would have been someone else, and if that person was a man (and I realize how MRA I sound right now), there wouldn’t be the reflexive notion to defend the aggrieved party. Nobody would be as defensive if Joe Smith worked at Fox, got harassed or demeaned, and decided suddenly his paycheck wasn’t enough to make up for the loss of dignity. That’s what I see this situation as, not an attack on women in the form of Carlson, but an organization biting off its own hand. I’m not sympathetic to that appendage.
Carlson had full control of her situation to make it into something sympathetic. Instead, she chose to buy into the hate that Fox News represents. Compare this to Alan Colmes, who was Sean Hannity’s punching bag for years and the token liberal on a network who thinks liberals are traitors. Colmes, at least, had the guts to stay a liberal, to give his viewpoint despite it being unpopular among his coworkers. I can sympathize with him. He knew what he was getting into and he tried to fight it. He wasn’t complicit in perpetuating the fraud, though by his treatment maybe it was done for him without his control.
I would have sympathy for Carlson had she stood up to her coworkers and used that Standford degree and former valedictorian brains and dispelled the lies that Fox was spewing every minute of every day. Instead, she chose to side with them. That’s why she deserves no sympathy. She was a willing participant when it benefited her and she probably would have kept on working there if it wasn’t for the harassment. So suddenly, the gravy train stops flowing and we’re supposed to take her side? Fuck that. She was as much of a piece of shit Fox talking head as any of them, only by being a woman, she was also a target.
And this isn’t to say that any woman working there is unsympathetic. I’m sure lots of women working Fox do so to put food on the table, because otherwise they’d be poor and on the streets. I’m sure there are camerawomen and graphic artists and copy editors who are perfectly decent people trying not to perpetuate the hate that Fox throws out. To them, I have complete sympathy. If anything like Ailes harassing them happens, I would defend them 100% and say its not their fault and how dare they take advantage of someone who’s just trying to make a living. But not Carlson, she was a willing and enthusiastic participant. She deserves nothing.
I’ve said that I’m fully supportive of the suit. I’m also fully of the mind that women, even those working at Fox, shouldn’t be harassed, demeaned, or in any way disadvantaged. That said, I see what happened to Carlson as her fault. I still don’t want it to happen to her or any women, and want it to be rectified, but I’m going to continue to blame Carlson for part of it happening.
Funny thing is she is in a position to benefit hugely from a social change she opposed. But justice for all means “for all”, which includes plastic skanks.
My criticisms are directed with perfect accuracy. Your are saying a woman deserved to be sexually harassed and assaulted because her choice of employer makes it more likely she would be assaulted.
You’re furthermore stating a woman holding, or purporting to hold, the wrong political views deserves to be sexually assaulted. I hope no woman I loves holds any political opinion you’re opposed to. I guess you’d laugh off their being raped. “What, she’s a conservative, you say? Do what you will with her!”
But, hey, it’s clear enough, from both you and elucidator. The right women deserve security. The wrong ones are “skanks” and they get what’s coming to them.
Sexist pigs.
What part of “justice for all” failed to sink in? I don’t have to like them or even approve of them, if they have a navel installed, they qualify. Got a problem with that?
I have a problem with women who are harassed and assaulted being called “skanks,” yeah. Frankly, I’ve turned a corner on the issue and am quite tired of self-righteous men appointing themselves judge of what women should and shouldn’t be and determining which assaulted women are the “skanks” and which aren’t. Or, for that matter, noting that the attractive women who get promotions must be fucking their bosses.
Yeah, I’m tired of sexist pigs, and I’m calling them out from now on. I’m honestly frightened of the danger my kids are facing as they grow up. Wrong job? Wrong place? Wrong politics? They’ll be deemed “skanks” who had it coming. Or accused of screwing their way into a promotion. My wife puts up with this shit too. She can’t eat a meal in a restaurant along while on a business trip, because men try to pick her up and then call her a bitch when she turns them down. She’s afraid to go out alone now, and it’s this “She had it coming” attitude that causes that.
Why should I tolerate men who say that sort of thing and make the world shitty for my little girls? Or my wife? Bunch of fucking clueless assholes. Completely unconscious of how easy the snide comments are, how hard it is for women. How much fear they live in. And if they get raped or harassed, well, someone’s going to call them a “skank” because of where they work, or how they dress, or what they do, or who they are, or whatever - really, one reason or another is always found by a goodly percentage of the population to determine the women/girl is a slut who had it coming and what did she expect being in that job/place/party/dress/body, right? Yeah, I’ve got a fucking problem with that.
Sorry, RickJay. You’re right in the general sense, but not in this particular case. Yogsothoth at #66 puts it more eloquently that I’m in the mood for, but don’t tell me Gretchen Carlsen had to choose between working at Fox and starving in the street. Stanford grads and former Miss Americas have loads of career options.
Like I said (probably with too much subtlety) on page one of this thread, don’t apply for a job as spokeswoman for Ass Pinchers, Inc, and then act surprised when your ass gets pinched.
I hope to see as much damage as possible done to Ailes and Fox as a result of this brouhaha, in any case.
jesuschrist.
Women have a right to not be sexually harassed or raped, regardless of their political views, job choices, or whatever the hell else.
No. I’m saying ANYONE who works for Fox knowing what they are all about deserves to be used up and shit on by Fox when they are no longer useful. Today its a woman and sexual harassment. Tomorrow it may be a black guy and racism. The day after it could be a disabled person and ADA violations. I’m saying don’t look at Carlson as a woman being attacked by men, see her as a person who furthered their own agenda using Fox that has now backfired. Such a person, man, woman, or whatever, deserves that backlash because Fox was never trustworthy in the first place.
I don’t hope to convince you of my intentions and you’ll probably think I’m a misogynist from now on, but I want to set the record clear that I don’t see this as a women’s sexual harassment issue, this is an issue where Fox will backbite anyone who is no longer useful.
Its not just holding the wrong political view. If it was simply about Gretchen Carlson, working at media company X, trying to stand out by promoting her conservatism, I would not at all be unsympathetic to her. Its ONLY because she works at Fox News, which has made its name attacking people like her, that her failure to see it and stand against makes her deserving of whatever harassment she received. That she is complicit in attacking other women like her until now, when the monster turns on her, is what I consider poetic justice and makes her extremely unsympathetic. Its nothing to do with her specific views, its entirely to do with her making the type of attacks she now suffers from.
Of course not, that’s silly. I wouldn’t allow people to do what they want with her. I’d try to stop it if possible. But if she jumped in naked into Ailes’ lap, I’d tell her she was stupid for doing that in the first place
Again, this has nothing to do with women or sex. Its all about a person supporting an evil apparatus that has turned on them and now we’re supposed to sit back and pretend they never had a hand in it in the first place. That’s not anti-woman, that’s simply ironic. And I’m going to laugh at irony when it happens to someone who deserve it
Asshole pig. Uncaring pig. Cruel (maybe) pig. But I’m not sexist. This isn’t about Carlson being a woman, this is about her choosing to attack people using a media empire that has now turned against her. She could be a man for all I care
I’ve never called her a skank. I’ve never called her a whore, or a bitch, or any other gender-specific insults you may want to attribute to me. I call her an opportunist who was burned by the very thing she profited from. I call it poetic justice. I call her ignorance that it may someday turn against her a feat of unmatched stupidity. Like I said, this isn’t a gender thing, this is strictly a situation where someone bad is burned by the very fires they were stoking. That person, man or woman, deserves it since the perpetuated it
In none of those situations did the victim perpetrate that same abuse to others. What Carlson did is completely different
Of course they have a right. 100% agree. I can’t agree with it any more strongly.
However, and this is the big misunderstanding we’re having here, if these people systematically perpetuate this hate on others, allowing for harassment, dismissing the pain and accusations of other women who have been hurt by men, and then it happens to them? Poetic justice. I’m not going to shed a tear over it.
I may want to stop the harassment, I may want to stop the abuse, the pain, and the sexism, but it doesn’t mean that those who had a hand in fomenting it doesn’t deserve a little bit of it coming back to them.
This is true.
It is also true that Fox News has been known for this stuff for a while. Now, if the owner of Fox News had any virtue or character, Ailes and his top managers would have been forced out due to this conduct a long time ago and a fundamental change in company policy would be implemented.
And that being said, if you willingly go to work for a place with this kind of reputation and behavior, it cannot be a complete shock that it will happen to you.
But oh hells yes, does she have a right to sue the ever living fuck out of them for it, and I sincerely hope that there are real world consequences for Ailes and his sexist cronies.
Yes, on this sub-point, I’ll have to call it for YogSothoth et al.
By way of fighting ignorance, according to Joe Muto quite a few of the folk behind the camera haven’t drunk the Koolaid. Given that the shows are aired from NYC, it’s not surprising that a lot of the editors are at least vaguely liberal. (And nobody inside believes that the network is fair or balanced.)
The pay isn’t too hot, except for the stars. I’m guessing that Carlson was one of those stars.
I don’t think the shareholders would have liked that. Fox News’ formula relies heavily on pretty faces, fake outrage, and Ailes’ instincts. I can’t see Murdoch Sr or Jr letting him go until the lawsuits become economically untenable. Given the personal character that Ms. Carlson has shown to this date, I expect a settlement out of court complete with a non-disclosure agreement. Generous from her perspective, manageable for the business. All of this is Carlson’s prerogative - it is! - but personally I’m not inclined at the moment to #StandWithGretchen, a hashtag that Carlson coined yesterday.
I like John Oliver’s take on it: You can go into Fox News, punch the very first person you see in the face, and be fairly certain that they deserved it.
Probably so, but being propositioned and solicited by swarmy, sleazy, fat-faced Roger Ailes is way worse than that.
Through his spokesmen, Ailes denies the charges. Carlson’s lawyers respond: fine. Let’s see you do that under oath.
What difference would that make? Has anyone ever been charged with the crime of perjury for a statement in a civil trial? On that point, he has nothing to fear.
Huh? Are you contending that no one has ever been charged with perjury for sworn statements in civil matters?
No; you’ve completely failed to understand what Yog wrote.
Now you’re not only completely wrong about what he wrote again, you’re spewing more bile and hate than anyone else has in this thread.
Holy shit! Put down that 54th espresso, stop shoving chocolate covered coffee beans in your mouth and calm the fuck down.
In other words: stop digging.