Well, you’re basically saying, “She did such and such action, so she brought it on herself.”
How is your argument any different than, “She wore a short skirt/went out drinking/went to a guy’s apartment” etc?
Hint: it’s not. You said, and I quote:
In other words, “she was a stupid slut and she deserved to be raped/assaulted.” Fuck that shit.
I don’t get what the point is of saying that Carlson ‘shouldn’t have been shocked’ that this happened to her at Fox, if not to say she deserved it on some level. She isn’t acting like a shocked or naive person now, she is reacting entirely reasonably and admirably by filing a lawsuit and calling attention to what seems to be several serious problems, in particular, conduct that is not legal and should not be expected even in a sewer. This isn’t a “McDonald’s coffee is too hot” lawsuit (I know in reality the woman had a real case in that instance).
Calling her a skank or saying she is to blame is pure sexism, but affecting a ‘yeah it’s wrong but what did you expect’ attitude when in fact the law is very clear about what she should expect (i.e., to not be harassed) is also something that creates a climate where people are less likely to speak up when they are wronged.
Percentages do have to add up to 100, though. So when I say Ailes and Doocy are 100% to blame, since you refuse to do the math, I’ll do it for you and tell you how much blame that leaves to Carlson: zero. And I have no doubt that a court decision would reach the same conclusion. So there is a contradiction between my statement that she has no blame in the matter and your claim that I’m blaming her, and the contradiction is explained by the fact that your interpretation of my statements is delusional.
Try to think logically. Why is it good advice? It’s good advice because Fox is a shitty place for women to work where bad things happen. If something bad then happens to someone who chooses to go there anyway, “I told you so” may be harsh and unsympathetic but not untrue. And it’s not “blame”, because the person didn’t cause the bad behavior.
No, it absolutely is not. The latter is a clear denial of women’s fundamental rights, which ought to include the right to wear whatever they want and to present themselves attractively if they want to. It’s an attempt to turn the blame from testosterone-infested criminal delinquents to innocent victims who have done nothing wrong. The position you’re trying to attribute to me is the worst kind of distasteful misogyny that I never have and never would engage in and I really wish you’d cut it out.
Women also have the right to work for whoever they want to, but if one chooses to work for CBS News, one goes to Fox, and one goes to work for a bordello in Reno, they also get to be called out for their lifestyle choices and judgment.
“I told you so” is untrue because it’s entirely reasonable for her to expect to be treated according to legal guidelines (and I imagine official company policy) and not be harassed or treated the way she was, even at Fox News.
“It’s 100% Ailes and Doocey’s fault,” and “if you go down into the sewer, expect to encounter sewage and sewer rats,” are contradictory statements, because the second statement is the putting blame on Carlson for her harassment. Pointing to the first one does not excuse the misogyny in the second. It just highlights the fact that you’re a liar, on top of everything else, because after you said that, you immediately turned around and blamed Carlson.
Yeah, and so is, “If you go down into the sewer, expect to encounter sewage and sewer rats.” There is no substantive difference between the two.
That is precisely the position you have taken, and if you don’t like me pointing it out, you are free to shut the fuck up at any time you please.
You’re revolting.
Anyone wondering about rape culture? This exchange is an example.
Absolutely any response to sexual harassment or violence that isn’t sympathy and condemnation for the perpetrator is unacceptable.
It’s really no different than “the master shouldn’t have whipped him, but what does he expect when he’s caught hiding extra food under his bed?”
“I told you so” is demonstrably true by the simple expedient of logic if, in fact, I warned you about something and then it happens. As for Fox, it’s not clear at what point, if any, these events actually transgressed the bounds of legality, but they were certainly extremely unethical. Is it “entirely reasonable” to expect an organization with a long and sordid history of unethical behavior to suddenly treat a new employee ethically? Of course not. If it was, then my hypothetical advice to Carlson not to go to Fox – which even Miller acknowledges is “good advice” – would not be good advice, it would be paranoid and silly advice.
And, despite Miller’s apparent inability to understand my point, this has nothing to do with “blame”. Carlson absolutely and unequivocally had the right not to be harassed, and the shitheads at Fox are 100% to blame. Her poor judgment in going to work for those assholes is an entirely separate issue. A court would certainly not regard the claim that “she knew they were assholes when she went to work for them” as any kind of mitigating circumstance even if it’s obviously true, and neither am I, for exactly the same reason. Pretty simple, really, and not hard to understand.
Shouldnt we let this lawsuit be adjucated before we decide guilt? I know that lots of people hate FN but even they deserve the presumption of innocence until its proven otherwise.
Where do you come up with these analogies? It’s more like “the master shouldn’t have whipped him because it’s wrong and illegal. It’s also true, separately and orthogonally to the first fact, that voluntarily coming over from Africa and enlisting himself as a slave because he heard the pay was really good was very naive and showed poor judgment.”
Sometimes, in this complex world of ours, there really is more to be said about an event than “X happened”, and it’s not always about mitigating the blame or the infamous “blaming the victim” – sometimes it’s just information. I reject the idea of censoring information or discussion because it might possibly be misinterpreted by the hypersensitive as some kind of defense of the perpetrator. Fox appears to be a lousy place for women to work. That’s just a fact, not a mitigation or defense of anything or anyone.
Good point. Other than the general fact that most of the principals at Fox News have all the ethics of a nocturnal rodent, it’s entirely possible that not everything Carlson claims is necessarily accurate or complete. But past history tends to suggest that right is on her side.
I understand your point perfectly. Your point is not hard to grasp. The problem is, your point is vile.
You’re the guy who says, “I’m not racist, but…” And then always follows it with something super racist. Except your take on it is, “I’m not blaming the victim, but…” and then follow it up with a whole shitload of victim blaming. You did it in this post. You did it in the post immediately above this one. You’ve done it in nearly every single post you’ve made in this thread. Enough. Shut the fuck up already. You’re not ever going to be able to spin, “if you go down into the sewer, expect to encounter sewage and sewer rats,” as anything other than victim blaming, because that’s all it is. The meaning of that sentence is not going to change just because you really, really want it to mean something that doesn’t reveal you as an absolute slimeball.
Here’s the thing: you may expect your boss to be a douchebag. You should, however, expect him/her to be professional and follow the laws.
…and shouldn’t be surprised when he inevitably acts like a douchebag?
If you are hired to play a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal, then you shouldn’t be too surprised if you get treated as a cheap, vacuous, ditsy blond with sex appeal -
it doesn’t make it right, it doesn’t make it deserved, it doesn’t make it appropriate and we should still try to stamp it out —just don’t act surprised about it
OK, let me wrap it up this way. In my many, many years of blogging and posting, no coherent person has ever accused me of the offensive things you are accusing me of using your self-assured powers of mind reading. They are certainly not things that any woman would ever accuse me of. You are misreading my meaning, and you are for some reason inexplicably angry and offensive. I myself am in a bad mood right now but it has nothing to do with you. We just had a bad storm that caused a lot of damage.
“Expect” is a rather ambiguous word. You can hire an inveterate douchebag and tell him that you “expect” him to follow corporate policy, but if that is your genuine expectation from said douchebag, you’re probably going to be disappointed, because it’s not a realistic expectation.
Watch out – you’re going to be accused of being a misogynist, too! :rolleyes:
You mean treated with respect and dignity, since that’s how all women should be treated regardless of their attire or appearance or intelligence?
What the fuck is all this about “acting surprised”? What does it matter how surprising it was or wasn’t? How does anyone here know whether Carlson was surprised?
yeah I do…
I mean exactly that.
I think this guy will get what’s coming to him - as he should, and I hope that lessons are learnt all around about what has happened here.
The point to be made -
What does the role she was hired to play say about the sort of respect the network has for women? Does it tell you that Fox values women for their intelligence? Does it tell you that women are on an equal footing of respect?
If your primary role is to act like eye candy and make the men feel smart…
Then it is not very surprising if the men around the network are going to buy into the idea that women don’t deserve the sort of respect you are talking about.
It’s not about what women deserve - its about the culture the organisation is propagating and that you are choosing to pursue and support.
This has no impact at all on the punishment that jerkface harasser should receive, nor does it lessen the wrongness of what was done…
What it does do is give us pause to think about what sort of news we choose to watch, and what sort of organisation we choose to support
6 More Women Accuse Roger Ailes of Sexual Harassment. " “You know if you want to play with the big boys, you have to lay with the big boys,”
What a hyena turd.
The same thing happened in the Jian Ghomeshi case as more women came forward.
But hey, if anyone dares to suggest that women should have thought better than to work with those creeps, they are blaming the victim! At least, that’s what Miller accuses me of. Apparently I’m a misogynist no better than Roger Ailes for suggesting that Roger Ailes is a fucking douchebag and unethical misogynist who should be strung up by his ancient balls from the nearest tree for the way he treated Carlson.
P.S.- and yes, I’m still in a bad mood for other reasons as previously stated.
I’m not reading your mind (thank god) I’m reading the words you’re writing on this message board, you loathsome little toad.