Welsh-English politics

In My Humble Opinion
1

Ok, this is gonna sound really arcane coming from an American, but I’ve been doing some reading about Wales whilst digging up my family roots and I’ve come across a surprising amount of prejudice? tension? on both sides of the fence on the wee island of Britain. I’m wondering if anyone from Wales or England could maybe shed some light on whether thats true or not? I was also mystified at how many pages were almost completely in Welsh with just a grudging small bit translated in English.

I mean I’m aware of the recent movements in Great Britain towards autonomy for Scotland, but how much of that carries over to Wales? Can anyone give me a 101 on recent politics? I’m quite aware of everything historical up to Owain Glyndwr, but blank slate past that point.

2

Anglo-Welsh politics tends to be more simple (IMO simplistic) than Anglo-Scottish. I suspect that it’s partially because Scottish society, particularly Glasgow and W Scotland, has so many internal frictions.

The Welsh tend to be the butt of many jokes - some harmless, some less so. And if I can generalise massively, they tend to be stupidly easy to offend in this way. ducks

Wales doesn’t have the degree of separation from England that Scotland has - the latter has it’s own judicial system, education, etc., unlike Wales. Likewise, the Welsh Assembly doesn’t have as many powers as the Scottish Parliament (both of which are recent creations), in particular it doesn’t have the same tax-raising abilities.

Don’t assume that the use of the Welsh language is purely ideological; for a significant number of people it is a mother tongue, and there is no reason that they would not choose to make a locally-based website in Welsh. (Incidentally, all UK government websites are available in Welsh - just look for the “Cymraeg” link.) Approx one-fifth of the population of Wales can speak Welsh ( 2001 census )

For an introduction to Welsh nationalist politics, take a look at http://www.plaidcymru.org/

3

I’m English, but I went to university in Cardiff, so my personal experiences might help.

In Wales there’s a wide level of opinion about being part of the United Kingdom, and a wide scope of nationalist sentiment. If one had to make a generalisation, seperatist and nationalist Welsh people tend to be concentrated in the north of the country, and those who support the union (and have pictures of the Queen on their wall) tend to be in the south. However, the south is more populous than the north, so the majority opinion is in favour of remaining part of the UK.

Many nationalists also acknowledge that an independent Wales would have a fairly problematic economy.

Welsh nationalism is represented by the legitimate political party Plaid Cymru (pron. “plide cum-ree”), but there was a shadowy group in the 70s and 80s called Meibion Glwndwr (pron. “my be-on glin-doo-ur”) who vaguely allied themselves to the IRA, and mainly burned down English-owned holiday homes. There were even two martyrs from the movement, who blew themselves up while trying to destroy a Welsh dam that supplies Birmingham with water. As far as I know, they had few supporters, and are no longer active.

My roommates at college were all Welsh nationalists. They were all young adults, and all Welsh speakers (there’s almost a direct correlation between the language and the politics). Their political feelings of animosity towards the English government were high, and a couple of my friends would paint red letter boxes green late at night, but personally there was little prejudice: it was what I would term “rugby” animosity - many jokes and ragging on the English, but in a friendly way. There is a poem that I can’t quite remember that goes something like:

Meanwhile in England, the Welsh are generally regarded as a bit of a joke, and not worth bothering with. It also seems to be OK publically to make prejudicial comments about Welsh people, as famously perpetrated by the Weakest Link presenter Anne Robinson on TV (one of her complaints was that they spoke their own language :rolleyes: ). To be honest, it pisses me off. The Welsh have a fascinating history, a beautiful country, a gorgeous language, and a wealth of amazing songs, and deserve a lot less derision.

4

This deserves a longer reply than I’ve going to give, but it’ll set the ball rolling.

Wales has its own administrative body – the National Assembly for Wales – that has less power than the Scottish equivalent. The creation of this body was the result of a referendum in 1997, but the result of that vote was pretty close (much closer than the referendum to set up the Scottish Parliament). I’ve noticed that personal insults against Welsh people are common on TV and are “acceptable” in a way that insults against other ethnic groups would not be.

In the summer of 2002, proposals were made to increase the range of powers available to the Welsh Assembly, but this has not happened yet, and the Minister for Wales at the Westminster government is resistant to any change without the approval of his department.

Here’s the BBC’s Welsh Politics page and here’s the homepage for Plaid Cymru, the nationalist party of Wales. This site offers a summary of recent Welsh political history.

5

Several years ago, I worked on a pipeline project in Colombia with a group of expats from my company (Big Oil, Inc.). I was the only U.S. citizen, and the rest of the team was composed of citizens of Wales and Scotland. My teammates never discussed politics from “back home,” which I found to be interesting. I am now working on a pipeline project in Georgia with a group of expats from my company (see above), and the team is once again made up of folks from Wales and Scotland. Okay, so here’s my point: I’ll ask the guys about politics and see what kind of response I get. I may get a very different view than what one sees on websites and in textbooks. I think I’ll hear the “man in the street” version of politics. You will have to wait a few weeks, because I am now on my regular “time off” from work. I go back to Georgia (yes, I have been to Gori) on 3 February. I’ll let you know the results of my conversation as soon as I get back to work. BTW, I didn’t know there were so many different kinds of vodka!

6

Thanks for your assistance, y’all. This is actually fascinating stuff, especially the political map on the BBC site. Its interesting how much that resembles the state of things when Edward I conquered Wales (North Wales (Gwynedd) being the most fervent nationalist, south Wales being more accomadating).

Does it strike you that nationalism there is on a downswing or upswing? Also, why is anti-Welsh prejudice given a tacit pass (if indeed you think it is) and what sort of stereotypes actually exist?

7

I have heard the Welsh themselves distiguishing between the personality of South Waleans and North Waleans; the northerners having a reputation of being less warm-hearted, and rather dour. They also have a reputation of only beginning to switch language from English to Welsh when an English person enters the room, to exclude him from the conversation (and I’ve encountered that personally).

I don’t think there’s more or less nationalism now than there was a decade ago, it just has a different character. Before the Welsh Assembly there seemed to be more of an edge to it – more bitterness in speeches and more resentment about how “England was ripping Wales off”. You could trace that to a frustration from a lack of self-determination. Now there seems to be more pragmatism and the view that changes may be made through the Assermbly, especially if its powers increase.

As jjimm said, some of the prejudice is mutual and humorous, being based on sporting rivalry, so I suspect that some of it is just an exaggeration of that. But when it goes too far I believe it’s because small-minded people feel a need to victimise someone and because the Welsh are white it’s less obviously racist to make fun of them than it would be to make fun of Afro-Caribbean or South Asian people for instance. In the same way, though, people from different regions of England make fun of each other (you mistake a Yorkshireman for a Lancastrian at your peril, and southerners and northerners ridicule one another all the time).

The standard Welsh stereotype is that they have sex with sheep. I’ve noticed Americans on this board claiming incorrectly that that’s a Scottish stereotype. Other things that the English joke about are the Welsh accent and language, the unpronounceable place names and the issue of burning holiday cottages.

8

I have some experience of this.

I’m Irish, but have visited Carmarthen in south Wales on various occasions over the last three years. I have become friends with many Welsh people.

There is a distinct rivalry between North and South Waleans(sp?). I have even trained my ear to notice the subtle accent difference between the two.

The North Waleans are definitely more Anti-England, and some of the “customs” I have heard from North Wales are nothing short of hilarious.

a) When paying cash for something they hand the money over with the Queen’s face pointing towards the floor, so they dont have to look at her.

b) When posting letters, they put the stamps on upside down, as a sign of disrespect to the Queen.

About the language thing

Everton They also have a reputation of only beginning to switch language from English to Welsh when an English person enters the room, to exclude him from the conversation (and I’ve encountered that personally).

I have to say, and I’m not belittling your experience, however, many of my North Walean friends do not have the confidence to speak conversational english. One lad I know, who when with an exclusively Welsh group, is the life and soul of a party, and I have witnessed this, but when he knows there are “native” english speakers around, he is afraid to speak for fear of making a fool of himself.

English is not a language many North Waleans grow up with, and they only start learning it in school.

I have found though, that those Waleans who speak Welsh in general conversation are quite good when it comes to “integration” of non-Welsh speakers. Some even consider it rude to speak Welsh when I am around, and I have seen and heard certain individuals pull others up on this point when I am around. My Milage obviously varies to yours.

I Love to hear the Welsh language being spoken, I only wish they’d put a few vowels in there, so I could at least try to read it. :smiley: *duck and run!

9

Yes, there are several Welsh accents – Cardiff doesn’t sound the same as Swansea or anywhere else in the south, and there are certainly differences between north and south.

I’m not sure what you mean here. If a person wasn’t confident speaking English would they not be more likely to be speaking Welsh from the outset rather than switching to it?

We don’t have different experiences generally, I was just quoting from one or two occasions that seemed to support a common assumption. I’ve had plenty of fine holidays in Wales and have found most people to be warmly tolerant of my attempts at phrasebook Welsh before volunteering to switch to our shared language.

Nevertheless, I’ve heard of other English people who were always treated as outsiders even when their Welsh was fluent and they’d lived there for decades. Other times I’ve seen rude English people getting the cold shoulder when they deserved nothing better (the “turn up the volume” school of talking to the natives doesn’t go down any better in Wales than it does elsewhere, and why should it?) Experiences are likely to vary from person to person and community to community.

Oh, and Carmarthen’s in mid Wales.

10

Which the links made very clear to me I should not confuse with Caernarfon in north Wales. If I don’t wanna be sniggered at, anyway.

11

Mo chara, some would say that this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black :wink: Actually, from my limited experience with the Welsh language, I would judge it to be moderately easier for an English speaker to learn than Irish is. It looks intimidating as hell, but in terms of pronunciation and grammar it’s really quite a bit simpler (and I mean that in an “I know it when I see it” sort of way so please linguists don’t all rush in and hassle me about what “simple” means in this context).

everton, I can confirm that there is a Scottish sheep-shagging stereotype. It’s mainly used by lowland Scots against highlanders, though.

12

If my experience of Irish-speaking in Donegal is any comparison, then it’s likely that bilingual people will alternate between the two languages. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, depending what’s being discussed. I’ve sat in the pub with my Irish cousins and their local friends and listened as the conversation swings between two languages every couple of sentences.

13

In my experience, the whole “they were talking English and then switched to Welsh when the Saesneg walked into the room” is a total and utter crock of shit.

Having lived in a household of Welsh speakers, I can vouch for the fact that they speak Welsh all the time if given the choice. In fact, after a few months I became quite adept at understanding it (though I couldn’t speak it to save my life. Strangely, written Welsh is almost perfectly phonetic, so once I learned the rules I could read out loud from a book and my Welsh friends could understand what I was saying perfectly, even though I had no idea what I was reading).

I even started to feel guilty when an entire room full of people dropped into English to accommodate me. My friends grew up speaking Welsh. They learned English at school. Why the hell would they speak a second language in private by choice?

I’m sure there are a few instances of it happening to be bitchy - particularly amongst Welsh people who grew up speaking English and learned Welsh at school - but I think the perception of this being a regular occurrence is exaggerated by English people due to a) prejudice, b) paranoia, and c) vocabulary “borrowed” from English*. If people in a pub are talking about e.g. computers, they might use the words “hard drive”, “computer”, “windows 2000” or whatever, while their conversation is actually in Welsh. An eavesdropping English person suffering from a) and b) might think the participants are chatting in English and then reverting to Welsh to freeze the Saesneg out.

  • There is actually a Welsh authority, similar to the French Bibliotheque Nationale, that creates Welsh neologisms, but few native speakers actually use them.
14

So which is it you’re calling me jjimm: prejudiced and paranoid, or a liar?

15

OK “total and utter crock of shit” is a bit strong.

Perhaps just unlucky?

I lived and travelled all over Wales for 3 years, and I never every encountered this.

16

Scenario: teenaged English tourist (me) walks into gift shop in Conwy. Middle aged female customer is chatting to similar friend behind the counter, in English, apparently about a mutual acquaintance. Nothing technical about the conversation, it’s of the “she said, then I said” variety. Slight turn in my direction, and having weighed me up the tone drops and the language changes to Welsh. I was more amused than offended.

Of course it wasn’t my routine experience, and I do recommend Wales for holidays.

17

I’m currently a second year student at the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. Although I don’t speak Welsh, I was born here (but moved to England at a very young age) many of my relations are native Welsh speakers.

I’m sure I must have something constructive to add, but a lot has been said already, here are a couple of interesting titbits.

S4C, the Welsh language TV channel, is the most subsidised television channel in the world. All road signs, and public information signs are Bi-lingual (with the welsh first) as well as many place names. Signs painted directly on to the road (for example Slow) are in Welsh. All the literature at University is bi-lingual, and several welsh language course are offered (for example Dram which I study, is available both as an English and Welsh degree) in exams the instructions given by the staff are given in both Welsh and English. All the staff are advised to learn Welsh as another language.

There is a significant amount of North-South Racism, (that is against welsh natives from the other end of the country) the Welsh language is significantly different in North Wales to that in South Wales.

Regarding the switching to Welsh, I have never experienced this and have drunk in the pubs you’re not supposed to into unless you speak Welsh, but on the other hand a friend of mine who is a non-Welsh speaker ended up in the Welsh speaking halls of residence by mistake, and was ignored for the entire year.

Also if you know any bi-lingual (any language) speakers, listen to them having with another bi-lingual speaker, they often switch between languages without realising it at all.

Wales is often considered a country is crisis, that is a crisis of identity, working within the theatre I get to see some indication of this, it’s difficult to summarise but theatre here, (including Welsh language theatre) seems to be reasonably healthy at the moment.

There is some nationalism still around, but while I feel that a cultural identity is a good things, I’m sure that standing at the border with big point sticks can’t be good at all.

I’ve rambled really, if there’s anything specific you want to know, I’m sure I or the others will try and answer it.