I just read here(Norwegian) that the average height for school children went down during the German occupation. I don’t know how credible the source is though.
Why can’t we look at skeletons from those times? I’d think that’d be a pretty go indicator.
I don’t mean this to be callous, but if we’re willing to dig up pharohs in the name of science, why can’t scientists go into some old-time graveyards, exhume a few skeletons, measure the bones, take a few pictures, and put everything back where it was? I’d think this would clarify things a little. It’d be more accurate than doors and chairs. And there are several cemetaries in my area with graves from the 1700-1800’s.
Sorry if I offended anyone - I ask this question for science.
PS: While we’re at it, why is it taboo to dig up a grave that’s 100 years old, but not to go rummaging around in Egypt?
While touring the Chicago Museum of Art, I visited their Egyptology department and saw a sarcophagus belonging to a priest. The little note on the display mentioned that his skeleton had been measured, and he had stood 5’4. As a member of the priestly caste he probably received adequete nutrition and care.
In my museum, we have a couple of coffins that were made around 1870. (Never used, of course.) I’ve never measured them, but they’re visably shorter than a “normal” casket of today.
Secondly, it didn’t used to be all that taboo to dig up graves of less than 100 years old. I’ve read that in England some graves were “rentals.” After a certain period of time, the corpse would be disinterred, and the remains disposed of in a communal pit or crypt, and the grave would be re-sold.
In the Victorian era, no one seems to have been all that distressed by the idea. There was a morbid fad of disinterring the famous dead at that time. Graves in Westmister Abbey were often opened, sometimes for no more reason than curiosity.
In my hometown, a cemetary was moved in the 1880s. The surviving coffins were moved to another cemetary. There are records from the time indicating that many of the coffins were opened in order to see what “condition” the bodies were in, but it is not noted as to why this seemed important at the time.
From reading of a few instances like these, I speculate that we’ve become more sensitive over time to the idea of our dead being disturbed. (Of course, there could have been myriad folks who were greatly distressed by this whose opinions were not recorded.)
Yes people were shorter in the past, on average. Look at any of the current “oldest known” bones of our ancestors. The average seems to be 4’2". If that isn’t enough for you the average height of americans has changed significantly in the last 50 years.
I read an article in a car magazine (Forgot which one.) which stated that in the 1960’s cars were built for men and the seats were set for someone between 5’2" to 5’8". Since car dealers wouldn’t have made much money building cars too small for people I think we can accept that people have grown quite a bit from the 1960’s. I remembered the article because it had mentioned that car makers were having trouble making cars for the current average of 5’“10 to 6’2”. because so many older customers are still around and would have trouble driving cars built for the new average.
And as any 6’ tall person out there knows trying to fit into the escort or saturns built in the 1990’s was next to impossible unless they desired to drive with their knees.
So yes on average people are taller. I think it has more to do with the availability of good protein than anything else. Although one can’t rule out the growth hormones used in the beef industry.
And anyone who thinks knights exercised in the middle ages exercised needs to have thier head examined. John Wayne was considered in good shape for the times. (And he was considering what was known about health at the time.) But the only people in the past who I have ever seen who seemed to know what exercise was about were the Greek Olympians, and Roman Gladiators. I’m not saying that the knights of the past were weak, but they didn’t exercise as we consider it today.
Were people shorter six years ago?
The zombies are getting bigger, I know that much.
And so you can’t wear them, fewer people could, so they were not damaged. Thus they lasted long enough to be put in a museum.
Larger gloves/clothes where worn by more people and were used until they were rags. So they are not in museums.
Well the zombies certainly were.
Edited to add: Bah, too slow.
I’ve discussedthis on similarthreads before.
TL;DR: We know from skeletal evidence that medieval people were only couple of inches shorter than the average today.
Giant zombies, just what we need…
This is QG. Waking up a 6 year old thread only to spout ignorance is not what this forum is about.
We have evidence from medieval and renaissance fechtbuchs that the warrior classes of the time exercised a LOT. Have you tried fighting with a full harness and a polearm? It’s not somethign someone not in top shape can do for any decent amount of time.
200 years ago, Europeans were short when compared to Americans. Americans were about the same hight they are today, but the Europeans tended to be much shorter. I’ve seen sleeping nooks that were only 5’ 6" in length. Most of the hight difference was due to poor nutrition. Europeans tended to eat mainly carbohydrates with little protein or produce.
America was very different. It was mainly an underpopulated agricultural country with plenty of produce and animals. Americans simply ate a more varied diet because food was more readily available. George Washington at 6’1" was considered tall for an American, but not unheard of. He wouldn’t have stood out in the United States like a 7 foot tall Basketball player would, but to the Europeans, he was a giant.
Ironically, it is now the Americans who are shorter than the Europeans. It is the Europeans who now have better nutrition and health, and thus have sprung up in hight. I don’t have any cites, but I had an army friend who was over there and simply noticed the difference in height between the American solders and the Europeans. In the American lines, the average hight was around 5’9", and it wasn’t unusual to see an American solder under 5’7" tall. The Europeans tended to be closer to 6’ feet.
The Japanese have been studying the changes in height and weight since they became westernized after WWII.
This is only one paper. It’s fascinating how dramatically the height and weight of Japanese has changed since 1945. They are facing the same troubling obesity and health issues as Americans.
I didn’t realize this was a zombie thread till now.
Anyway, I’ve toured the National War Museum in Edinburgh Castle. The uniforms there are incredibly small and would fit probably most 13 or 14 year old boys now. Anecdotal evidence but clearly worth mentioning.
My brother and I tower over our cousins in Ireland; it’s a standing joke. Which is especially strange because the folks on our Mother’s side are not very tall either, and our Irish cousins all keep dairy cows in addition to their regular jobs, so it’s not as if the children have ever lacked calcium.
I have always thought it was the hormones added to American beef and dairy cattle which caused it. But Celtling is lactose intolerant, and we seldom eat beef, and she is a head taller than her classmates, and two heads taller than her cousins.
I think it’s because American kids get more sun. Vitamin D + calcium = better absorption and taller kids/adults.
I believe you would be best served using mass graves and probably from the military/a military action. Compare something like the mass grave at Vilnius to the one found at Gloucester. Better yet the Roman mass grave found in Germany years back as those were “battle dead”. Yes, using the military as an average could carry a certain bias but not as much as picking graves at random would be accused of.
Yes, the average height of populations will change by few inches as time goes by and conditions change. Skeletons have been dated and measured to establish how and when it happens. Interestingly, skeletons from the Paleolithic area have been found to have modern average heights.
Average heights and weights are mostly related to the amount and quality of the food you eat, and your living conditions (infections, diseases and pests stunt growth). There are groups of people who have been on the taller side and well-built for many hundreds of years, and there are many groups of people who had sub-par lifestyles that led to short average heights across populations. Here in America we seem to focus on all the European and early American data, and artifacts left behind that indicate many people were small… People were smaller in general during many periods of time, because much of Europe and many early Americans had horrific nutrition, frequent food shortages, lived in filthy, crowded conditions and had tons of diseases for the last few hundred years.
I’ve seen it plenty of times first-hand. Tiny Thai, Vietnamese or Guatemalan parents who grew up during tough times in their home country have their kids in America, and the children are the same height as their parents when they are 10 years old. I know a couple (they are elderly now, who knows what they went through as children in Mexico) who both have to be under 5’ tall, and their 2 sons ended up literally a foot taller than them and had tall children themselves.
Here is a list of USA Presidents and their heights. Not that I used different colors depending on the time that they served in office, basically about 70 years apart, give or take.
Pre-Civil War-1789-1860 Red
Civil War to WWII-1865-1945 Blue
Post WWII 1945-Today Black
6 ft 4 in 193 cm
** Abraham Lincoln **
(Note-If Kerry was elected in 2004, he would be the tallest President)
6 ft 3½ in 192 cm
** Lyndon B. Johnson **
6 ft 2½ in 189 cm
Thomas Jefferson
6 ft 2 in 188 cm
George Washington[6][9]
Chester A. Arthur[6]
Franklin D. Roosevelt[6]
George H. W. Bush[6][10]
**Bill Clinton[6][11][10] **
6 ft 1 in 185 cm
Andrew Jackson[6][12]
Ronald Reagan
Barack Obama
6 ft 0 in 183 cm
James Monroe
John Tyler
James Buchanan[6]
James A. Garfield
Warren G. Harding
John F. Kennedy
Gerald Ford
5 ft 11 in 180 cm
20 William Howard Taft[15]
Herbert Hoover[16]
Richard Nixon[6][14]
George W. Bush[17][18] 5 ft 11½ in 182 cm
**
5 ft 11 in 180 cm
Grover Cleveland[6]**
**Woodrow Wilson[6][19] **
5 ft 10½ in 179 cm
Dwight D. Eisenhower[6]
5 ft 10 in 178 cm
Franklin Pierce
Andrew Johnson[6]
Theodore Roosevelt[6][13]
**Calvin Coolidge[6] **
5 ft 9½ in 177 cm
Jimmy Carter[6][14]
5 ft 9 in 175 cm
Millard Fillmore[6]
Harry S. Truman[6]
5 ft 8½ in 174 cm
**Rutherford B. Hayes **
5 ft 8 in 173 cm
William Henry Harrison[6]
James K. Polk[6][21]
Zachary Taylor[6][13]
**Ulysses S. Grant **
5 ft 7½ in 171 cm
John Quincy Adams[23]
5 ft 7 in 170 cm
John Adams
**William McKinley[/B
5 ft 6 in 168 cm
41 Benjamin Harrison[25]
Martin Van Buren[26]
5 ft 4 in 163 cm
James Madison[6][27]
Pre-Civil War (1790-1860) (Washington to Buchanan)
Over 6 feet tall--------------------6 men
Between 5’10" and 6’-------------1 man
Under 5’10"------------------ 8 men
Civil War to WWII (1865-1945) (Lincoln to Hoover)
Over 6 feet tall --------------------4 men
Between 5’10" and 6’-------------- 7 men
Under 5’10"----------------------4 men
Post WWII (1945-) (FDR to Obama)
Over 6 feet tall -----------------8 men
Between 5’10" and 6’-----------3 men
Under 5’10"---------------------2 men
Total 43 Presidents (even though Obama is 44, he is the 43rd person to be President because Grover Cleveland was counted twice because of non-consecutive terms.)
Over 6 feet
Post WWII–8
Pre Civil War–6
Civil to WWII–4
Between 5’10" and 6’
Civil to WWII----7 men
Post WWII----3 men
Pre Civil—1 man
Under 5’10"
Pre Civil-8 men
Civil to WWII–4 men
Post Civil—2 men.
Actually, I think this is a fairly average spectrum of heights. If aliens from outer space abducted 43 middle aged men for study, this would be the spectrum that they would get.
Nutrition helped a lot in making people taller. Many of the earlier Presidents were not tall people probably because of this fact. In my opinion, they ate much healthier than the shit we eat now, the problem was that many diseases which are easy to treat today killed many of them. Food, however healthy (lots of vegetables, little sugar, or fattening processed crap like today) it may not be safe due to the cleanliness of the prodict and the lack of refrigeration.
Many of the Presidents, especially the early to mid 19th Century Presidents, were outdoorsmen out of necessity and stayed in shape living on the frontier. Even for the rich and the gentry, life was a lot harder than now, which required survival of the fittest. Lincoln however was not the tallest because he was the healthiest. Probably being his height was due to some health or genetic problem. Lincoln probably would have died in his second term if he wasn’t killed.
My assumption, yes, people were a little shorter and lighter 150 to 200 years ago, simply because of diet. The ones who did not succumb to a host of illnesses and diseases made up for the slightness through muscle and hard work.
Keep in mind that during the 19th century we were awfully short for a lot of reasons, mostly associated IIRC with everybody picking up and moving to the city. So yes, Lincoln was a huge man for the time, but the time was shorter than average. This is one of my favorite Lincoln pictures - “Holy shit it’s a giant!” The average height of a soldier in the Civil War was around 5’7", though. So really he’s only a bit taller than my dad.
